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Brevier Legislative Reports, Volume XXI, 1883, 311 pp.
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THE
BREVIER LEGISLATIVE REPORTS.
VOLUME TWENTY-ONE.

INDIANA LEGISLATURE.

IN SENATE.

FRIDAY, January 5,188310 a. m.

The LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR called the Senate to order.

Rev Dr. Arthur T. Pierson, of the Second Presbyterian Church, opened the session with prayer.

The Secretary's minutes of yesterday's proceedings were read and approved.

Mr. BELL called up the resolution offered by the Senator from Elkhart [Mr. White] yesterday, for a, Joint Committee to wait upon the Governor, and it was adopted, Messrs. Bell and White being appointed on the part of the Senate.

Mr. VOYLE introduced a bill [S. 3] requiring County and Township officers to have and keep a cash book; which was read the first time and referred to the Committee on County and Township Business.

Mr. FOULKE offered a resolution requiring all bills introduced to contain a reference to the number of the statute it proposes to amend.

It was referred to the Committee on Rules.

Mr. VAN VORHIS offered a resolution requesting the Secretary of the Young Men's Christian Association to procure a minister of the Gospel to open each day's session with prayer.

Also a resolution making 2 o'clock Thursday, January 11, an hour for appropriate tributes to the memory of Hon. George H. Chapman, late a Senator from Marion County.

They were severally adopted.

Mr. YANCEY offered a resolution for a Special Committee on Woman's Suffrage

Mr. BELL moved to lay the resolution on the table.

This motion was agreed to by yeas, 27; nays, 21.

Mr. Brown offered a resolution for the appoint anent of a Select Committee of Five, of which the Lieutenant Governor shall be a member, to report rules for the government of the proceedings of the Senate.

Mr. SPANN made an ineffectual motion-yeas, 4; nays, 4-to lay it on the table.

The resolution was adopted.

Messrs. Brown, Spann, Graham and Bell were appointed by the Lieutenant Governor as said Committee.

The Committee appointed to wait on the Governor reported that His Excellency would deliver his message to the General Assembly this morning.

Mr. FOULKE offered a resolution to amend rule 8, by providing for a Committee on Judicial Proceedure which was referred to the Committee on Rules, on his motion.

Mr. SMITH offered a resolution requesting the Secretary of State to furnish a copy of official record in his office concerning proceedings of the General Assembly on the Constitutional amendment proposed in 1881, and also in relation to the Wabash and Erie Canal amendment, and certify whether the records in the adoption of other amendments show that the Constitution was complied with in this provision : "Such proposed amendments shall, with the proceedings thereon, be entered on their journals and referred to the next General Assembly."

Mr. WILLARD made an ineffectual motion-yeas, 23; nays, 26-to lay the resolution on the table, as in his opinion it proposes to interfere with the rights of the Judiciary Committee. He then moved to refer it to the Judiciary Committee.

Mr SMITH: I hope the resolution will not be referred to the Judiciary Committee. I apprehend the Senate is as well qualified now to pass upon the resolution as it will be after the Judiciary Committee shall have considered it. This resolution was intended to be, and is nothing else but a demand or request of the Secretary of State to furnish certain facts upon which we can act intelligently and understandingly when this question shall be sprang upon the Senate, as it undoubtedly will be. There is nothing else intended, except to procure this information from the Secretary of State. I apprehend that I occupy the same position that other Senators do upon this floor I am wholly ignorant of the acts of the Legislature on this question, and we can only procure the information from the Secretary of [ State's office either by passing this resolution or going to that office and personally examining the records for ourselves. I can not see why Senators oppose this proposition, especially as the information sought for is necessary in order to act intelligently on a proposition that will in all probability come before us in some form, concerning the proposed amendments acted upon last session; and it is rumored that upon a clerical error that matter is to be defeated.

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Mr. BROWN: I am opposed to that resolution, and will state one or two reasons why I am opposed to it. I have no objection to its going to the Judiciary Committee, if the Senate so please, but to my "mind the resolution is useless. All that the Secretary of State can possibly do will be to hunt up the journals of the two Houses on the days when the proceedings referred to in the resolution tools: place, and send to the Senate a certified copy of the matter printed in those journals. Those Journals are open to the Inspection of every man, woman and child in the State. If the Senator is ignorant about the matter it is his own fault and nobody else's. Shall we then put a duty upon the Secretary of State to send out that which is a public record of the State lodged in the archives of every County in the State? But as the Senator from Delaware [Mr. Smith] has said, it has gone out in the land that this amendment is to be defeated upon some technical ground, I will say that I agree with the Senator from Marion (Mr. Van Vorhis] on this subject. The Constitution requires proposed amendments to that instrument to be spread at large upon the journals. Is any man so blind that he can not see whether that has or has not been done by taking up those journals and examining them"

[A message from the House by Chief Clerk Edwins informed the Senate that the House was ready to receive the Senate in Joint Convention to hear the Governor's message to the General Assembly]

Mr BROWN [resuming]: Now on the question as to whether the amendments are legally on the Journals or not, the Legislature is the exclusive judge-its decision is final. No Court can review t. If the Legislature decides that their amendments have not been entered at large upon the journals, that is the end of it. If the Legislature decides they have, that is the end of it. So we should not attempt to run away from meeting the main proposition as suggested by this resolution. And it would be charging the Judiciary Committee with an unnecessary burden.

Senators then left their 'hanaber.in a body and proceeded to the Hall of the House of Representatives, to hear the Governor's biennial message to the General Assembly.]

When the Senate returned to its chamber the Senate took a recess (till 2 o'clock p. m.

AFTERNOON SESSION.

A message from the House of Representatives announced the passage by that body of the bill [H. R. 5 1 ] appropriating $125,000 for the expenses of the present session of the General Assembly.

On motion by Mr. BELL the Constitutional rule requiring all bills to be read on three several days was set aside-yeas, 43; nays, 3-the bill read the first and second times by title only, the third time by section, and finally passed by yeas, 45; nays, 3, with an amendment by unanimous consent adding an emergency clause and an amended title.

The Senate resumed the consideration of the resolution pending at the noon recess.

Mr BELL objected to the resolution because it proposes to call for an opinion from the Secretary of State as to the legality of the action of the last Senate on the proposed Constitutional amendments. I do not think this is the time to discuss that question. As far as I am concerned personally, whenever that question comes before the Senate I propose to act as a man and as a lawyer-especially as a lawyer-and if convinced that the action of the last General Assembly was regular and legal, no one will say so more promptly than myself, notwithstanding lay opinion on some of these amendments. And even if they had not been so fixed I would easily take that position. If the resolution be amended so as to call for no opinion, for one I should have no objection to it. I think it premature to discuss the other question now, I think it one of the highest importance, entitled to our best consideration, and I have no doubt it will receive it. I think there is much in this bill that ought not to be there. I hope that tho Senator will leave out all that refers to the Wabash and Erie Canal, and for one I would like to have the question of the pending amendments to the Constitution. and the regularity of their passage by the last General Assembly comes, up unicumbered by any other question, whatever. Let us meet it like men, I pledge myself to fairness in its consideration, and I have no doubt other Senators will meet the question in the same spirit.

Mr. BROWN moved to amend by striking out all after the words or figures " 1881."

Mr. FOULKE: I am opposed to the amendment as offered by the Senator from Jackson [Mr. Brown]. This matter of the certification of these papers is a matter of paramount importance, if we may judge by the intensity of feeling shown on both sides, and by the entire people of this State. It is of more importance than any matter which has been before the General Assembly of Indiana for many years. It is true, this is a mere Parliamentary question, but to a proper determination of how we shall act in this matter, it is necessary to have documents and papers, both as to the law and as to the facts. As to the facts, we must get everything necessary to the certification of the proceedings had at the last General Assembly, and as to whether or not those proceedings were fatal, it is necessary to know what the law is and it is proper to know what has been the former practice as to amendments proposed to the Constitution of this State. It is true the custom does not make law, but legislative interpretation as to the passage of such amendments is certainly a good argument in the consideration of this question. It seems to me we should have everything before us. I am not willing that the Judiciary Committee shall determine whether or not this matter is properly before us. Let each Senator determine that for himself. We should judge of these things by the highest evidence we can get.

Mr. WILLARD: It seems to me we will have a Judiciary Committee, which will examine carefully all legal questions which may be presented to the Senate during the session. That Committee will have an opportunity to look into this entire matter, and when it makes a report the information that the Senator from Wayne [Mr. Foulke] desires will be made a part of that report. If that Committee shall desire any information from the Secretary of State, or from any other officer, they have it in their power to ask for the passage of a resolution requiring it to be furnished; and we should not now, in advance of the formation of that Committee, usurp to a certain extend the powers of that Committee. When it comes to investigate this question, their report will bring to the Senate every particle of information, I trust, that can be obtained from the records of the State.

Mr. VOYLES: The design of the Senator from Delaware [ Mr. Smith], as I read his resolution, is to obtain not only a certified copy of the proceedings in relation to the Constitutional amendments, but also an opinion from the Secretary of State on that subject. I do not know why he should seek an opinion on that subject, unless it be to give him an opportunity to carry out some of his former pledges. I am reliably informed that he was invited to give his opinion on those amendments during the last canvass, and he said he was formulating his opinion and in the due time would promulgate that opinion. It may be that the Senator from Delaware desires to give him and opportunity to promulgate his opinion. But aside from that, I think we can get at the facts without reference to anyone' opinion on the legality or standing of the amendments. I think the proper way will be to refer the resolution to the Judiciary Committee.

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Mr. SPANN: It seems to me that there can be but one object with Senators on the other side of this Chamber in urging that this resolution be referred to the Judiciary Committee. If referred to the Judiciary Committee it means simply that it shall never reach the Secretary of State's office. The Judiciary Committee will be made up of a majority of members from the other side, who will simply say, we do not desire any certificate from the Secretary of State to settle any question, we will simply report that it is inadvisable or inexpedient to hear from the gentleman known as the Secretary of State, and consequently if this resolution goes to that Committee it will sleep the sleep of death. I am glad to know that the Senator from Jackson [Mr. Brown] in his eloquent remarks this morning in slopping over, lead us to believe that they expect to carry out the platform made in the last campaign to kill the temperance movement at the first stage, and this is the first step to refer this resolution to the Judiciary Committee and there kill it.

Mr. BELL: I regret that this question is being forced upon us as a political question. Neither do I know by what authority the Senator from Rush [Mr. Spann] states what the action of the Judiciary Committee will be. My object in having this resolution go to the Judiciary Committee is, they being lawyers, will know what information is necessary in order to pass intelligently upon this question, and I hope they will not find it necessary to involve it with others, but present the bold, bare question, and present it fairly and squarely. I have no opinion u Don it, because I am not conversant with the facts.

Mr. CAMPBELL: I am unable to comprehend why the simple resolution that the Senator has offered should be regarded as in any sense partisan, neither can I comprehend why It should have any reference, directly or indirectly, to the sentiments of any member of the Senate on the temperance question; neither do I understand that the resolution asks, directly or indirectly, the opinion of any body. It asks for documents to be placed on our desks that we may know exactly the wording of the records, as we have a right to know. I do not see that this vote should have any partisan bearing whatever. I understand the object of sending any paper to a Committee is for the purpose of having the opinion of that Committee in regard to the validity of such paper or proposed action. The resolution asks for no action except the transmission to us for the perusual a simple public record. I apprehend no Senator questions the validity of such transmission, and that nobody doubts but that we have a legal right to ask that a copy of such records may be spread before us. Then why should the resolution be sent to the Judiciary Committee? I am opposed to a submission of this question to a Committee because I believe it is plain that we don't need any light from such a source.

Mr. FOULKE: I am opposed to leaving it to the discretion of any Committee as to whether The Senate shall have sufficient data for its investigations, and that is what this proposition is. Are we to have full and complete data for our investigation as to whether these amendments are before us or not? I see no reason for submitting it to the Judiciary Committee, unless it be to stifle this matter.

Mr. SMITH: In the Introduction of this resolution I had no idea of causing this debate. There is nothing in it but to request the Secretary of State to furnish certain information. It asks no opinion. I would not be willing to respect his opinion, because it is no better than that of any Senator on this floor. Senators have gone into a discussion of the Constitution and other things not connected with this matter. The question before the Senate is upon the reference of the resolution to the Judiciary Committee. I am opposed to that reference for two reasons. First, there is nothing in it for the Judiciary Committee to consider. There is not a legal or constitutional question in it. And, in the second place, we would not get a re- turn of it, I fear, in the form of a report from that Committee in time for the information asked to benefit us. Now, I move to lay the motion to re- fer to the Judiciary Committee on the table.

This motion was rejected-yeas, 21; nays, 27.

Mr. BUNDY moved to amend the motion to commit by adding instructions to report not later than Wednesday.

The amendment was agreed to.

The motion as amended was also agreed to.

Mr. CAMPBELL offered a resolution instructing the Secretary of State to place on the desk of Senators a copy of the Revised Statutes, and take a receipt therefor from each member accepting a book, with the understanding that the copy shall be returned at the expiration of the member's term of office.

On motion by Mr. SPANN it was amended by by providing that the books shall be returned at the expiration of this Session.

The resolution as amended was adopted.

Mr; HILLIGASS offered a resolution requiring the Superintendent of Public Instruction to furnish a statement of the total amount of money unloaned school fund in the several Counties of this State.

On motion by Mr. BUNDY it was referred to the Judiciary Committee when appointed.

Mr. WHITE offered the following:

Resolved, That on requisition of the Secretary of the Senate,the State Librarian be and is dircted to furnish the necessary stationery suplies for the use of the Senate Chamber for transacting of the business of the Senate; and on requisition of the Senate Chairmen of the Standing Committes be furnished for the use of said Committees in transacting the business of the State before them the necessary stationery supplies.

It was adopted.

Mr. BROWN moved to reconsider the vote by which the resolution concerning stationery for the Senate was adopted.

Pending which the Senate adjourned.

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