AFTERNOON SESSION.
[Mr. STEIN'S Speech (which occurs here) on this question of the Order for the ration of the Fifteenth Amendment having been too long delayed for authentication, it found in this Appendix, page -.]
page: 287[View Page 287]Mr. HANNA. Mr. President: As I am one of those addressed in the letter called in question by the Senator from Tippecanoe, [Mr. Stein,] perhaps it is nothing but right and proper that I should give a correct version of that. And I would state now that at the adjournment of the last session, and after I had been informed of certain things to which the Senator from Jefferson [Mr. Cravens,] alluded, I failed to have that confidence in the word of man which I had before that time possessed. I am naturally of a confiding disposition, and when a man tells me a thing is so, or shall be so, and it is in his power to make it that way, I am inclined at all times to believe it. When a man deceives me once, it is my misfortune, but if he deceives me once, it is my misfortune, but if he deceives me a second time it is my fault. Therefore it may be for that reason that certain Senators are asked for no pledges.
Mr. STEIN, (interposing.) I would ask that the Senator alludes to?
Mr. HANNA. I allude to the running debate between the Senator from Jefferson, [Mr. Cravens,] and myself. I can only state-
Mr. STEIN. Inasmuch as a remark was made by the Senator from Laporte, that I had not been asked for pledges, I should like to biow whether the remark affects me?
Mr. HANNA. I will tell you. And I will state here, that I went to the Senators from Jefferson, [Mr. Cravens,] and Tippecanoe, [Mr. Stein,] and two or three other Senators on the Tuesday morning after this suffrage amendment came in on Monday, and I asked them if it was at all probable or likely that the amendment would be taken up or an hour fixed for its consideration. I was exceedingly anxious, as I am to-day, to do the necessary legislation for the State of Indiana. I applied to these Senators, who with two others I knew, would give the Democratic party the control of this Senate as to this question, and they gave me the assurance, as I understood it, that it should not be taken up without notice. Whether properly or improperly, whether rightful or wrongful, a member of the Republican party who attended their caucus that convened Tuesday night, came to me-
Mr. CRAVENS, (in his seat.) Wednesday night.
Mr. HANNA. No, Tuesday night, came to me and told me that the Senator from Jefferson, and the Senator from Tippecanoe after it was ascertained that a sufficient number could be commanded to ratify this amendment, they got up and advocateed and asked to bring the question upon us the next morning and put it through in violation-
Mr. STEIN, (interrupting.) I desire to have the floor when the Senator gets through to make an explanation.
Mr. HANNA. You can make it now.
Mr. STEIN. The conversation alluded to was had in the room of the Senators from Jefferson, [Mr. Cravens,] and Wabash, [Mr. Fisher.] There was no one present except us four. It occurred on Tuesday morning before the opening of the morning session-the very morning succeeding the day upon which this amendment was communicated to us by the Governor. The first thing said to us by the Senator from Sullivan, [Mr. Hanna,] according to my recollection-of course I desire to put no wrong construction upon the Senator's own recollection-I presume he takes his and I take mine;but the first remark made by him was that he came to notify us that the Democratic Senators had their resignations ready and proposed to resign. I asked why, when we had postponed the consideration of the amendment till Thursday at two and a half o'clock? He answered that they could not rely upon that-that the Democrats were apprehensive that we were simply waiting to have our forces marshalled-there was a slim attendance Monday-and then that we would recind the special order and pass the amendment right through. We told him that was no purpose of ours, and if he desired proof of our sincerity that we would pledge our words that we would stand against any such thing. And he said if we would do that-knowing Judge Hughes' petition, it would be satisfactory. We gave him to understand that we spoke only for ourselves,' and if the caucus should come to a different conclusion we would give him due notice; add it will be remembered by the Republicans in that caucus, that we expressly informed our brethren in caucus, that if we came to the conclusion to take up the amendment we were in honor bound to the Senator from Sullivan, to notify him of our action. The President, [the Lieutenant Governor,] I believe was in the caucus, and will remember that notice. I have been resting under the recollection all along, definite and clear, that we were to notify him before any action should be had on the amendment provided our caucus concluded to take it up, so the Democrats should have time to resign.
Mr. HANNA. I do not allude to this to get up a controversy. It is a matter of different recollection, as there always will be upon verbal arrangements. It has shaken, to a great extent my confidence in men, and until yesterday I had no information different from what I state now. Now, Mr. President, how have we proceeded since we came here? We made propositions, through the Senators and Representatives holding seats on the floor of the two Houses, to the opposition, upon what terms we would come in and proceed to the legislation which the Gouernor commanded us to come up here to do. This proposition was published the next morning, in the public prints. We had not expected that. How they got hold of it I do not know; certainly not through me, though I was the original drafts page: 288[View Page 288]man of the proposition. We then made another proposition. That proposition was treated, as far as I know, with silent contempt. We never received any answer. I might say that the authority of the two Senators holding seats and the Representatives holding seats, to act for the whole party, having been questioned by the Republican caucus, we re-adopted the very same proposition and sent it back, but never received any answer to it. We submitted a fourth proposition; that we would come in and transact the business for which the Governor convened us-pass the appropriation bills and other necessary legislation-provided we have assurances that this proposition to amend the Constitution of the United States be postponed, and we have at least one days notice of its consideration. That was treated with silent contempt and no effort was made by them to get at legislation. Thereupon comes a proposition from members of the Republican party, acting not outside, but independently. Now the Senator from Tippecanoe, [Mr. Stein,] comes here and cracks his plantation whip over these Senators. He hopes none of them will bow the supple knee to-the people-the people. He is here cracking his whip-we will see whether they obey his behests or not.
This proposition made by these several Representatives and Senators, whose names I do not mention except that of Mr. Osborn, whose name has been mentioned by the Senator from Tippecanoe, [Mr. Stein,] was not acted upon by the Democratic caucus-it was not in a form to require any action. But there was a committee appointed-my colleagues had the kindness to make me chairman, and I drew up a letter, which will in dne time be published, stating that if they would put this proposition in form it would be accepted. Then comes the reply of Mr. Osborn; and that reply says these promises had been repeatedly made. The very point in controversy had been repeatedly made, that letter says. What did we do with that letter? That letter came to me. I have known Mr. Osborn from his boyhood and I will say that he is an honorable man. The letter was received and thereupon the caucus adopted this resolution which I read as part of my remarks:
RESOLVED, Thaathe House shall organize to-day, and immediately thereafter a resolution shall be introduced postponing the consideration of the fifteenth amendment until after the disposal of the necessary business of legislation. If said resolution is adopted, the Senate will then organize; but, if it is not adopted, the Senate will not organize, unless terms are obtained.
Now sir, members of both Houses of the opposite party were informed of this resolution. Members of the Democratic party then went in, were sworn, the House was organized, and the resolution was passed unanimously men standing by their pledges in the House as gentlemen always should. Let weal or woe come a gentleman should stand by his word when he gives it. They stood by and adopted the resolution, and believing that the Senate would be equally honorable with the House we came in and were sworn in. Now we are met with a proposition, which they say is not the action of the Republican party, to entrap us. What does the letter say? That it was not the intention or purpose of the Republican party to entrap us. What does the Senator from Tippecanoe say? It is open war, war to the knife and to the hilt between a faction on one hand and the Republican party on the other. He asks no quarter and will give non. He will thrust this down the throats of the people, whether they desire it or not. No quarter, he says. Well, let him stand upon his platform and other gentlemen upon theirs and see whether he can crack his whip and stop them.
Here is the resolution upon which we went into the two Houses, of which the gentleman was informed was the action of our caucus. We desire to take up the legislation of the State as the only business the Governor commanded us, and that is to pass the necessary appropriation bills. We desire to take them up and act upon them; and I would rather take them with all their defects and put them through, than stand here wrangling over the question whether the right of suffer-age shall be extended or not. I say the Republican party were informed of our resolution the democrats went into the House and the republican members in good faith carried it out. And we had the right to expect it would be carried out in the Senate. After what passed at the last session of the Legislature I exacted no personal pledges and I have given none. I know if a man were to give me a personal pledge and treat me in that kind of a manner it would be a personal matter between him and me, and we would settle it, if he placed me in a false position before the country and before my people.
The Senator from Tippecanoe [Mr. Stein] says we must act upon this ; that it is a great reformation; that Christ himself had opposition raised to him, and objection must be expected to nigger voting. He makes that kind of blasphemous comparisons! [Laughter.] Now I say that my objection to extending the right of suffrage is not on account of the negro as a man, for I know nothing about him. I never was in a slave State in my life. I never had a negro about my house, and don't know anything about him. All I know of him is that history records the fact that from the earliest time of civilization to this, that you cannot make a government-that you cannot constitute a government, giving the power in the hands of two races, but you sow in that gov page: 289[View Page 289] the seeds of its own destruction, Jealousies, discords of all kinds and bickerings will spring up which ultimately results in revolution and anarchy. Mexico is a good example. For forty years I believe every five years on an average they have been in revolution. Every man has equal privileges there and what a government they have got!
I am not afraid, if you see fit to pass this Censtitutional amendment but what in ten yeary the majority of colored people would array themselves under the standard of the Democracy in voting. And why? (Laughter from the Republican benches.) Because the Democracy have been their friends. (Renewed laughter.) There never was four millions of black people, since the earliest period of civilization that were so well protected as these in the United States. Why did you ever know of the blacks in this country eating each other? and don't they do it in Africa? Didn't the Apostles visit that country when they visited the others, and yet they have never advanced a single step in civilization, in the arts or sciences, in commerce, or agriculture even, for three thousand years. Now, again, they would range themselves with Democrats because they are poor men and laborers. Politicians are dividing themselves in this country into the monied power and the power of labor - the power of wealth against the power of labor. And I think, naturally the poor men will range themselves on one side, and men controlled by wealth on the other. Of course some poor men will be on the side of the rich because they will hire them. They may do that for a time but they can't do it all the time They will get tired opening their purse strings. Therefore I say I am not afraid, as far as the success of the Democratic party is concerned I am not afraid of the adoption of the amendment. I oppose it on the ground that it is a concentration of power in the hands of the general Government, and is making a consolidated government, and not a confederate government. It is an attempt to revolutionize-a strike at the foundation of the principles of government as established by our fathers. And they are doing it in defiance of the people. And yet if these gentlemen think their constituents will sustain them, why are they afraid of submitting this question to the people?
Now, all we ask, and earnestly insist upon, is that necessary legislation for the State shall be had before the question is taken up, discussed, or in any manner acted upon. This is another evidence of the sentiment getting abroad that the general government must control everything. All the necessary legislation for the support of the Asylums for the Blind, Deaf and Dumb and Insane, must wait for this. I have heard gentlemen here talking about the soldiers and say they will be the friend of their widows and orphans, and yet they stand here thrusting the nigger between the soldiers and the soldier's widow and children. They profess to be the friends extraordinary, not ordinary friends of the soldier, and the soldier's widows and orphans, and yet we see anothre evidence of the evershadwning demands of the general Government that the amendment to the Constitution shall take precedence of everything in the State. Now I hope the threats-if they may be called threats-this cracking of the plantation whip by the Senator from Tippecanoe [Mr. Stein]he is very fond of it for I have heard it often-I say I hope it will have no effect. And I tell the gentleman he had better look to his own position, for he stands upon slippery ground.
I have a right to talk this way, for I have appealed to the people to know what they thought of my course here, and they sent me back. As far as that is concerned, however, I take my own course without consulting my constituency; and if it don't please them they can send somebody else. I think I have said all I desire to, unless some gentleman makes a statement connecting me with some transaction that may be necessary for me to explain.
Mr. FISHER. Mr. President: It is not my purpose to enter into an argument upon this question. I came here with my mind made up as to the course I should pursue, and I was free to speak of it both to Republicans and Democrats. I said I was in favor of performing the necessary Legislation of the State, and when that was done take up this constitutional amendment. I was asked on last Friday, I think it was, if I would sign a paper to that effect. My reply was that I was never willing to give my word for anything that I was not willing to give my note for. I signed it, and that is the last I knew of the paper except what I have gathered from the discussion here. If the paper was withdrawn of course all obligations imposed by that paper were withdrawn with it. If I were to make you a proposition in writing, to buy a certain piece of property, and you had not accepted that proposition until 1 withdrew it, the proposition would not be binding, and it is just precisely so in this case. Therefore whatever members of the Senate said prior to what was written on that paper and since, is the only thing they have to be governed by. No other pledges are resting, as I understand it, on any Senator here except such as have been verbally made. What I said verbally was not in the shape of a pledge to anybody;-it was a mere expression of determination of my own purpose-nothing more. Now how stands the proposition before us? Suppose that pledge was binding to give at least one days notice to the Democratic party before taking up and acting on that constitutional amendment? That joint resolution page: 290[View Page 290] ratifying the constitutional amendment was introduced to-day; and immediately a resolution was introduced postponing its consideration for four weeks. That is the question now before us, with the exception , of the amendment of the Senator from Montgomery [Mr. Johnston.] Now the question arises: Is that action upon the constitutional amendment?
Mr. BRADLEY (interposing.) Why does not the Senator state the full purport of that resolution?
Mr. FISHER. It having been read three or four times I did not think it necessary. I will state for the benefit of the Senator from Laporte, [Mr. Bradley,] for it is evedent he does not understand it, that it not only fixes the time and place but the manner of voting upon the fifteenth amendment. Well now sir, enact this resolution for postponement and what do you do? It would be understood by every Senator upon this floor to mean that in four weeks from to-day at two o'clock it would be taken up and acted upon in each House. I believe in the passage of that resolution, we are acting in perfect good faith to the gentlemen on the other side of the House. I suppose no Senator has pledged himself to let them dictate the terms of the resolution which should postpone action on this subject, but they seem to claim control of the whole matter.
Now it was said this morning that if this resolution passed there would be resignations and a breaking up of the Legislature. Suppose we back down in view of that fact, the next thing would come in an appropriation bill which might contain an item obnoxious to the minority and they would say: strike that out or we resign. Then a bill might come in which was obnoxious to them and they would say: unless you indefinitely postpone it we will resign. And that principle clothes the minority with all the power of this body. It gives them power to control evrything, and hence I am unwilling to yield to their dictation in this matter.
Much has been said about the people contending against a factious majority in this matter. I always imagined that I had a constituency and that I was representing them; and that is as much as I propose to do. I do not propose to submit to any other gentleman representing my constituency. When I come here I vote the will of the people who sent me here. I don't propose that any man shall say to me: Sir, you are voting against the will of your people and you must change.
I regard it as a matter of no great consequence whether that amendment [Mr. Johnston's] is adopted or not. As far as I am concerned if the amendment is voted down and the resolution of postponement passed, and a majority of the members of each House vote in favor of adopting the joint resolution it be so admitted and so adjudged. I believe that if a majority of the members of the Legislature go into joint session and by a majority of each House vote in favor of that amendment, that will be sufficient. What is needed is a majority of the Legislature. If a minority prevent our doing it in a legimate way, let the majority do it in the best way they can, so as to give an expression tot he Executive of the United States, of the wishes of the majority of the people of Indiana. This fifteenth amendment has to be ratified by the Legislatures of three fourths of the States. What we want to show is, that by a vote of a majority of each branch the Indiana Legislature is in favor of it, and I apprehend it makes little difference whether there is fifteen twenty to vote in the negative or none. I believe it will be just as effectual as if the Democratic party were here.
Mr. CARSON (interrupting.) Then why was it not gratified last session? And why was it not ratified before we organized this session?
Mr. FISHER. In reply I will say that the only reason was, we had not sufficiently matured the subject. [Laughter.] It Wag something new. We were not so well satisfied upon the subject as we are now. We had not inquired into the legality of such a step And there may be a difference of opinion now. I am only giving my opinion.
Now I said last week that if a proposition was sprung for the purpose of ratifying the constitutional amendment I would vote in favor of postponing it to a certain time, and I am ready to vote for that resolution of postponement. When that vote comes I want the yeas and nays, for there may be half a dozen members who have made pledges and I want to see their names. If the Democrats join with such Republicans as favor the fifteenth amendment and vote down the resolution for postponement, the responsibility is with them; and in voting that down it brings us to a direct vote upon the constitutional amendment and then the responsibility is with them.
Mr. RICE (interposing.) I understand the pending proposition is the amendment of the Senator from 'Montgomery. Do I understand that you will vote "aye" on that proposition?
Mr. FISHER. No sir. I was supposing that we were going to vote upon the resolution just as introduced, then I would like to know whether the Democratic Senators are going to vote with those who are now in favor of pressing that resolution for ratification at once, and thus defeat those who are ready to vote to postpone it or not? If they do this and a vote on the question is brought up the responsibility is with them. I will endeavor to have it postponed, but if it comes I will be found voting "aye."
page: 291[View Page 291]Mr. BRADLEY. I will ask, for he is one of the Senators upon whom I relied, not upon a written pledge, but upon verbal statements, whether he did not tell me that he would be in favor of postponing the consideration of this fifteenth amendment till after all legislation is done; and particularly as to whether I did not ask him-if they intended to take any step to get us into any kind of a trap - whether the legislative journals should show the facts in the case - and whether he did not say there was no trap contemplated and that they would make the journals show the facts? And when I asked if he thought the Governor would certify to the facts, if he did not say that the Governor would certify to the facts, and everything should be done fairly and openly?
Mr. FISHER. To all that I answer affirmatively; stating however, in teh same connection, that I gave my own views and my own action, and not authoritatively what would be the action of any one else. For instance, speaking of the Governor's action, I had no authority to say what he would sign, nor did I say as knowing, but simply as a matter of opinion. And in that position I now stand. I am ready to postpone the consideration of that joint resolution four week, and I propose to vote for that measure. There is no trap in it. I do not so understand it.
Mr. BRADLEY. I will ask further, if the Senator intimated by word, gesture or action, or anything, that coupled with that, should be this proposition to consider the fifteenth amendment in Joint Convention?
Mr. FISHER. I never thought of such a thing. It never crept into my head, This is something new to me. But it comes here and I meet it; and it amounts to nothing material in my judgment. But I have said enough on that. Something has been said in relation to certain pledges that were made in a conversation between the Senators from Sullivan, [Mr. Hanna,] Jefferson, [Mr. Cravens,] Tippecanoe, [Mr. Stein,] and myself. My understanding is as was stated very clearly by the Senator from Tippecanoe. When the Senator from Sullivan, had spoken of the question precisely as the Senator from Tippecanoe stated, it was said, as we are very apt to say, that a thing should not or would not be taken up, as I said to the Senator from Laporte, [Mr. Bradley,] that there would be no traps and that our journals should all show right,meaning that was my purpose, that it should. But we stated at the same time that it would be controlled by the Republican caucus, and if any other course was decided on he should be immediately notified. In addition to this I said I would vote against, taking it up before 2 1/2 o'clock. I don't think either of the other Senators went so far as that, but I did. With regard to what transpired in the caucus I will only say that a motion was made that we take it up at 2 1/2 o'clock on Wednesday. I think it was immediately withdrawn; or after a very short discussion. I am not certain whether it was withdrawn or voted down. There was no proposition to take it up Wednesday morning. It was averred by the Senators from Tippecanoe and Jefferson that they should feel constrained to notify the Senator from Sullivan immediately if it was agreed to take it up. Another great error the Senator from Sullivan made. He said after it was found that we could pass the ratification-I say to you we never found that--
Mr. HANNA (interrupting.) I was only giving the language of my informant.
Mr. FISHER. On that night the highest vote was twenty-three Senators-so the whole thing originated in a mistake, or error, or misinformation.
Mr. HANNA. Was it full?
Mr. FISHER. Yes sir, it was full, excepting one man only-Mr. Colley.
Mr. HANNA. Are you sure of that?
Mr. FISHER. Yes sir.
Mr. HANNA. Was Mr. Hughes there?
Mr. FISHER. Yes sir, Mr. Hughes was there. There were twenty-nine in the caucus, and twenty-three only pledged themselves to vote for the amendment. I believe I have said all that is necessary to say on that subject. This'question has been argued by gentlemen more competent than I am. I felt constrained to define the position in which I stood because I supposed in all these references to pledges reference was had to me as one of them. I now stand with a determination if possible, to pass this matter over for the term of four weeks. I am in favor of that resolution; but while I am in favor of that, I am not in favor of the Democratic members dictating the terms of any resolution we pass.
Mr. BRADLEY. Suppose the resolution should pass and be concurred in by the House, would it not take it out of the power of this Senateto alter it without the concurring action of the House?
Mr. FISHER. I suppose it would. I have no question of that. That matter must then come up on that very day at that very hour. If the Democratic members should be here with us, or we be here and they see proper not to act with us, I apprehend it would not make one cent's difference whether we go by resolution of the House and Senate together or by resolution of a joint caucus.
Mr. BRADLEY. I will ask if the Senator is indifferent whether this is passed now-about going into joint convention under this vote, or by the two Houses separately,-why does the Senator insist that this resolution should be adopted?
Mr. FISHER. In reply I have this to say: page: 292[View Page 292] that when this resolution came in it was said by Democratic Senators that if you pass that resolution we will resign. That is just the point. If we are upon every immaterial question to be threatened with a resignation to break up the Legislature it is just as well to stop to-day as any other time. If this was a question of the passage of the Constitutional amendment, it would be a different thing. But I hold it to be an immaterial question, and if so let the resignations come.
Mr. GRAY. Mr. President: I had not intended to say anything with regard to this question, and should not now were it not for the fact that a great deal has been said with regard to certain pledges: and I do not know but perhaps the vote, when that is taken, will be considered as pointing out the Republican Senators who may have made certain pledges to our Democratic brethren. Now I have made no pledges at all. I have refused to sign anything of the kind. I am clear and untrammelled, but I am not willing, nor am I going to discuss the matter of pledges in the Senate. It is a matter between individual members and Democrats, and a question I have no right to inquire into. I am going to vote upon this matter just as I feel upon it as an individual Republican Senator. For my part if a caucus had determined to take up this question, at a certain day I would have stood by that caucus election, but my party has not determined anything of the kind: then I am left free to act and vote as becomes an individual Senator in his place, and I shall do so.
I think I can say, and say truly, that a large majority of Senators in this chamber, both Democrats and Republicans, have been saying in the hotels, upon the street corners, in the chamber here, and almost everywhere else, that they were in favor of acting upon the necessary legislation of the State before taking up this amendment to the organic act of the nation. I have so expressed myself, and am going to act in that way. I am for the fifteenth article. I am as much in favor of it as any gentleman, and represent one of the most radical constituencies in the State of Indiana; and that is saying a good deal, but I do not believe that any Senator can go before his constituents and receive any applause after having been very punctillious on this question as to the matter of time. All that can be done to-day, an be done next week or the week after; and I am solicitous about a few measures before this Legislature. I am exceedingly anxious that this election bill shall pass; and that the fee and salary bill should pass; and I am exceedingly anxious with regard to one or two other propositions; and I shall shape my conduct and vote so as to bring about the passage of these measures that I believe the people are interested in. After we get through then I am willing to take up this constitutional amendment and vote upon it whether we have a quorum or not.
Mr. CHURCH. I will ask the Senator if he has not assurances that the presiding officer will not entertain a resolution when there is no quorum present;every Senator knows that the presiding officer refuses to entertain a resolution when there is no quorum here- and now, if the Senator is so anxious about th ratification of this amendment, I ask how he expects to do it until he votes upon it?
Mr. GRAY. I have not understood the chair as expressing himself in that way. The Senator from Porter [Mr. Church] may hay information that I have not.
Mr. CHURCH. I do not think there has been any secret about it. During five or six days the President has uniformly refused to entertain resolutions in the absence of a quorum unless they have direct reference to the perfection of the organization of the Senate And it was so at the last session.
Mr. GRAY. I do not remember it. I was not here the last two or three days of last session. But suppose you insist upon the passage of the resolution you have now, and suppose the Democratic Senators go out and resign how will you do ?
Mr. CHURCH. I propose to have another election and another session. I propose that when men undertake to be ugly they can't he worse than I.
Mr. GRAY. The only difference between the two positions is this: In the course I shall take, although this state of things may come about, still the necessary legislation of the State will have been enacted; his course will bring about the same state of facts but the necessary legislation will not be enacted. I simply wanted to make this explanation for the purpose of explaining my vote when I come to give it.
Mr. RICE. Mr. President: I will take this opportunity to place myself right upon the record on the vote which is to come up. This is the same vote we took this morning, substantially. It is varied a little, and comes back in a little different shape. The question was new to me. I tried to get information as to the scope of this resolution on yesterday, but could not do it. This morning the question came up. Without having time to investigate or think about this thing, I voted against the amendment. I shall vote in favor of the amendment, now, and simply for this reason: I stated in the Senate the other day-it has been my view before I left home, since I came here, and is yet-that the necesary legislasion ought to be gone through with. The people ask it and demand it. I am with the Senator from Randolph [Mr. Gray]: there is legislation pending which nearly and dearly affects the page: 293[View Page 293] interests of my constituents, and I want to go on with that legislation. When we get through with that, I then propose to cast my vote to take up this amendment, and vote for the amendment and dodge no responsibility.
But how are we placed? When we came back we found the Senators who had resigned with credentials in their pockets. They stood out from Thursday afternoton at two o'clock, till yesterday at four. At that time there was a prospect of the Legislature breaking up, and, I say it here fearlessly, it was the understanding - and men who say they never bow the supple knee and cringe to power were as anxious, that I, or any person else should make a pledge. They would not do it themselves, however glad they would be for me to do it. It was the feeling of every Republican Senator before the organization; and now, after these pledges are given - I did not give any absolute pledge, and I do not think any Democrat will say that I did, but if it had been necessary, had I been asked to pledge, I should have done it. I spoke to the Senator from Porter and the Senator from Laporte, and stated this position. I thought the amendment ought to be pushed off to a certain day, or indefinitely, until the neccessary legislation was passed, and then taken up.
Mr. CHURCH, interposing. I undertake to say that when you state that every Republican member intimated to you that they would like you to make these statements to Democrats, it is not true so far as I am concerned.
Mr. RICE. You cannot get up a quarrel with me. I will make an exception of the Senator from Porter [Mr. Church,] if he disclaims anything of the conditions.
Mr. GREEN. Will the Senator please except me ?
Mr. RICE. Yes sir; but I will not except any more of you. [Laughter.]
Mr. KINLEY. The Senator from Wayne [Mr. Kinley] must be excepted.
Mr. RICE. No, sir. I say, as a general proposition, not that I spoke to every Senator, but you could feel it in the atmosphere of the Republicans with whom you talked. And, I say the Republican pulse beat high all over the State for it. And, on this Senate floor men went further than I-they signed a paper. I don't blame them for that. I thought they did right if they could reconcile it to their sense of propriety. But how has it resulted? That the Democracy relying upon these indefinite pledges-these street talks that we had as among gentlemen, and the written pledge of seventeen members of the Legislature, they came in; and I say they have a right to say it.
What was the effect of my speech the other afternoon? I know it had a damaging effect on me with some of my friends. But it brought several Senators to their feet who indorse the same position I took. Mr. Scott interrupted me at the time.
He read from the published reports as follows :
Mr. SCOTT (interrupting-) Do you say they had pledges from enough to control the action of the legislature?
Mr. RICE. I so understand it. I say you stand upon dignity-
Mr. SCOTT (interrupting.) I have given an individual statement, and if they are not willing to take my word as a man of honor-
Mr. RICE. What individual statement?
Mr. SCOTT. I am willing to give these gentlemen all the time they want to get out, if they want to leave-if it is one, two or five days.
Mr. RICE. That is my very proposition,-and I want the Senate to make it here. And, this afternoon we will have a Senate.
Mr. Fisher interrupted me in the same way. I indorse the whole thing as my course. Now, how does this thing stand? After the proposition had been sent to the Democratic caucus, it was withdrawn, and the Chairman, Mr. Osborn, returned to the Democratic caucus a letter, in a part of which he says:
And while they desire and seek nothing but a fair and undisguised course in any act of legislation, they can see no good that will result from any additional promises.
What is the effect of that? You have got our promises already. But if you ask us to go one step further, we give no additional promises. The paper was withdrawn. But that shows that the substance was before the Democratic caucus; and they say upon that they acted.
Mr. GIFFORD, (in his seat.) That is the way we understood it.
Mr. RICE. Then you have organized upon what was said on the street, and they said they would not give any additional pledges; and so the inference is that the pledges were binding in effect. They so organized and agreed upon a line of policy. They agreed to organize the House, and the Senate was not to be organized until a resolution was there passed to postpone this amendment. The representative from Porter county introduced the resolution postponing it till the 11th day of May. That has been my position all the time, and men shall not come upon this floor and tell me that I bow the suppliant knee, and cringe to power, when, at the same time, they depend upon my pledge, and your pledge, and for the purpose of an organization, use us as a cat's paw to put these chestnuts in the Senate, and then face upon us. The crack of the lash will have to come from other hands on my back before it will be felt. It will have to come from hands clean and pure as to having stood by the organization of the Republican party during the last session. [Applause.]
Now, sir, what do they propose? The Senator from W'abash says that in fact the resolu page: 294[View Page 294]tions are the same, and we can organize and pass the constitutional amendment, and pass it with the Democracy outside, and it will be equally binding with a joint convention. I say no. I say no! Does it carry out the assurances of Mr. Osborn that they desire "nothing but a fair and undisguised course in any act of the Legislature?" Then why does the Senator hold on to the propositions, the result of which is equally the same? Why do we spend so much time when there is not a Republican who comes out and says that the action proposed is in a straightforward and undisguised course; and was not so intended? I say if the Democrats sit quiety by here and in the House, and let it pass, they organize a joint convention with the majority, and that convention rules without respect to them. I go in for taking a square course. When I pledge my word as a Republican, I intend, as far as my action is concerned, that it shall stand. It shall stand let other Republicans do as they please. I consider myself bound, and I have now achieved the purpose for which I made the statement, and that is the orgaization of the Legislature.
Mr. TURNER. Will the Senator allow me?
Mr. RICE. Certainly.
Mr. TURNER. In this informal conversation of his upon the streets, I will ask him if he does riot now understand and believe that the real basis and foundation, upon the part of the Democrats, and the inception of their willingness to come in and be qualified began with the debate which took place upon the pledges or remarks that they would--?
Mr. RICE. I should judge they had their force. They would have had their effect upon me had I been in the position those gentlemen were.
Mr. TURNER. I ask this question for the simple reason that the next day, the first time I saw the Senator after he made his speech seeing that he and others would agree to postpone this question-he and myself had a conversation, and I think in that conversation I stated that it was an expression of confidence we had not before--
Mr. RICE. I know that at no time did I utter any other sentiment than the one I uttered on this floor. What effect it had upon the Senator and others I do not know.
I do not want to prolong this discussion any further. I see a material difference in the two propositions. I am willing, for one, if they resign to-morrow, to take up the constitutional amendment, and vote on it, and let our action go as far as it may. But I shall not discuss the proposition-it is not before us.
It is a simple question of right or wronga question of justice to the people of Indiana. Your State officers are borrowing money to carry on the institutions with; every interest of the State is languishing, and we are standing on a point which ought not to block legislation at this time. If these gentlemen had stood aside, and we had passed this resolution today, I think it would be perfectly legal, and it would be legal at any time. What is the effect of it? You virtually effect the passage of the constitutional amendment today, because it gives you a power to exercise at a future day, which if a sufficient number live and are able to and are able to get here, they can exercise, and they will. I stand upon what I have said - upon the pledge of the seventeen members of teh Legislature - upon the pledge of the vote of the solid House yesterday in regard to my course, and I am here to vote in good faith to carry out the line of policy indicated on Saturday and indorsed by the House of Representatives.
Mr. JOHNSON of Montgomery. In order that we may get at legislation; and take up such bills as are necessary to be acted upon, I move that this resolution and pending amendment be postponed and be made the special order for Monday the third day of May next.
Mr. RICE. Why say the third? Put it on the eleventh.
Mr. JOHNSTON, of Montgomery. I will say the eleventh then.
Mr. CRAVENS. Mr. President. I suppose we apprehend fully the meaning of the gentleman's motion. I have nothing to disguise. These resolutions have been pretty generally debated and fully discussed, during which something has been said about pledges. I do not believe any Senator upon this floor is here upon the influence of a pledge since the withdrawal of the written pledge. Senators have risen and said they made no such pledges as are imputed. They expressed their own individual opinion. The opinion expressed by the Senator from Parke I had at all times, arid would have expressed it had I been disposed to give assurances. There has been no time since the amendment came in here that I would not have subordinated its consideration aud passage to the perfection and passage of all internal, local, state and home legislation. Now sir, Senators have said they are extremely desirous to refer this question to the people. I ask Senators where do we get our power to refer questions to the people? We have come here under the command of the people and the constitution of the United States and of this State--
Mr. CARSON, (interposing.) This is a proposition to amend the fundamental law of the land.
Mr. CRAVENS. Exactly. I prefer not to be interrupted. It is a bad habit growing up on this floor. Let Senators make a mend page: 295[View Page 295] of it. I do not intend any discourtesy. I want to be brief- I am going to bring this matter to a close to a determinaton before I leave it.
When Senators talk about referring this to the people I say if they are true to the Constitution they are insincere, because these people have said, Here is our will; here is the organic law. What does that tell you to do? It says that whenever the Constitution of the United States is to be amended it shall be done by a vote of two thirds of the States. Now what shall be done with it? The people made that Constitution; it is their will - their command to you and to me; and we have sworn to obey it. It says that Congress shall determine whether the voice of the people shall be called or whether this Constitutional amendment shall be referred directly to the people's representatives or agents in the several Legislatures. I say there have been fourteen amendments to the Constitution of the United States and every single one of them have been made in the very mode proposed now to adopt this fifteenth Constitutional amendment. I say that when the Democratic party or the Republican party propose to light this thing of negro suffrage they have chosen a bad place to fight it. If they had been in good faith and determined to fight this suffrage question they should have done it when they permitted the negro to be made a citizen, because now if you can withhold suffrage from any class of citizens, have you not the same power to rob and take from other classes the elective franchize? Certainly the same power will fully authorize you to take it from any other class.
As to the mode I will be frank. There is no other Senator upon this floor responsible for this resolution introduced this morning. The main thing in it is what? The very thing these Senators have been asking day after day for a postponement of the consideration of this question. I now ask the Secretary to read the concurrent resolution, which followed the introduction of the joint rresolution, and I call the attention of the Senate to the language of it.
The Secretary read as follows:
Resolved by the Senate, the House of Representatives concurring, That the consideration of the joint resolution accepting and ratifying, on the part of Indiana, the proposed Fifteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, be postponed and made the special order for action at 2 o'clock P. M. on Tuesday, the eleventh day of May next ensuing, in joint Assembly of the two Houses to be held in the Hall of the House of Representatives on said day and at said hour.
Mr. HAMILTON. Will the Senator yield?
Mr. CRAVENS. I want to get clear of this, so that you can do what you want to. This resolution proposes to postpone the consideration of that joint resolution. I supposed this proposition to make it a special order would be voted tor directly, and I supposed some of my own party would have to vote for it. It was introduced for this simple reason,-and I will be as frank as gentlemen dare be;-there was only one poor, pittiful, lame advantage, and that was that we would have the benefit of these Democrats in each end of this Capitol to legalize the joint assembly, and for nothing else. I do not know--
Mr. BRADLEY (interposing.) Will the Senator tell us that he did not deny that this morning?
Mr. CRAVENS. No sir;-I do not know whether the Reporter took it or not;-I said the main proposition was the question of postponement; and another thing, the other proposition was to get it from before both of these bodies, so it would not be a temptation to the majority, nor a terror to the minority without let or hindrance. I say all the advantage was simply legalizing the joint Assembly. I recollect in caucus, I proposed myself that mode of ratifying that Constitutional amendment, and I know it was most promptly and decidedly voted down by a caucus of my own political party. I say we are taking all the chances of the legality of that mode;-and even more risk upon ourselves than they, We are taking the risk of again presenting the proposition to the same body of men who upon a former occasion refused to adopt it.
The Senator from Sullivan, [Mr. Hanna,] in his speech this morning, took issue with myself. I understood him to say that mode would not be legal. I said no other man was responsible for this. I regret now that it had not been made the subject matter of a caucus; and when I find members of my own party reject a proposition of this sort, I certainly have no right to persist in trying to force it to a vote; and I do not feel that I am authorized individually, in my own person, to assume the responsibility of even one day's delay of the necessary legislation of the State by my own individual action. But, as I was alone responsible for this proposition; and as I find members of my own party are not in favor of it, many of them;-I know it will look a little harsh to others that I pursue this course, I now propose;-and inasmuch as this debate has gone as far, perhaps, as practicable; and inasmuch Mr. President, as I won't reply to this cracking whip operation; when I see the effect of those threats, and see the disposition to yield to them that I have seen around me today; I do not feel that I would be authorized to answer the responsibility of delaying legislation, continuing acrimonious debate, or further disturbing the harmony of this body, I now, if the Senator from Montgomery will withdraw his amendment and motion to postpone, I will put an end to the matter.
Mr. JOHNSTON of Montgomery. I would like to know what kind of an end? [Laughter.]
page: 296[View Page 296]Mr. CRAVENS. I will say to the Senator that I will put an end to it that will be satisfactory to him.
Mr. BRADLEY. Let us hear what it is? Will it be a call for the previous question?
Mr. CRAVENS. I shall not call the previous question. I have already indicated what it would be, and have no disposition to go back on what I have said.
Mr. HANNA. We don't want this matter laid upon the table.
Mr. CRAVENS. It will not be laid upon the table.
Mr. JOHNSTON of Montgomery. If the Senator will withdraw his resolutions joint and concurrent, I have no objection.
Mr. CRAVENS. I have indicated clearly, I apprehend to every man within the sound of my voice what I propose to do.
Mr. JOHNSTON of Montgomery. With the understanding that I have the previlege of the floor to press the same amendment, if it is not satisfactory, I will withdraw it.
Mr. CRAVENS. I go into no understanding.
The LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR. Does the Senator from Montgomery withdraw the motion to postpone?
Mr. JOHNSTON of Montgomery. Yes, sir.
Mr. CRAVENS. Then with the consent of the Senate, in order to put the matter at rest, and leave the whole matter and the whole responsibility in the hands of the majority, for them to take whatever course they see fit, I ask permission to withdraw both the joint resolution and the concurrent resolution.
The LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR. Is there any objection? The chair hears no objection. It is so ordered. The Chair lays before the Senate House.
The Secretary read an invitation for the Senate to attend in joint convention, at four o'clock, in the hall of the House to hear the Governor's message.The invitation was accepted.
Mr. HANNA. I do not want to go over this discussion again at some future time, and I have a resolution on this subjeet which I desire to offer now.
It was read as follows:
RESOLVED. That the consideration and discussion in every shape and form, of the proposed Fifteenth Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, and every preliminary resolution, or motion looking to the consideration of the ratification of said amendment, shall be, and hereby is postponed till the 11th day of May next, at 2 o'clock in the afternoon of said day; to the end that the necessary appropriation bills, and other necesssary legislation may be acted upon.
Mr. HANNA. I call the yeas and nays and move the previous question.
The LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR. It is the opinion of the Chair that this resolution is not in order for the reason that the Senate has concurred in a resolution of the House to a, into the Hall of the House to hear a message from the Governor.
Mr. HANNA. Has the hour arrived?
The LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR. Yes sir.
Mr. HANNA. I did not know that. I withdraw the resolution.
Thereupon-
The hour having arrived and passed, Senators repaired to the Hall of the House instanter.
When they returned-
On motion by Mr. STEIN, the Senate adjourned till two o'clock P. M., tomorrow.
