ORGANIZATION OF THE SENATE.
DEFERRED DEBATE.
IN SENATE, SATURDAY, APRIL 10, 1869.
[CONTINUED FROM PAGE 32.]
Mr. Kinley-The only strange thing to me is that we hesitate a moment in our course. We are either a Senate or not a Senate. It is true the Constitution provides that the Senate shall not exceed fifty members, and our law provides that the State shall be divided into fifty Senatorial districts; and it also provides that the State shall be divided into one hundred districts for representative purposes. It says, in effect, that there shall be one hundred members in the House of Representatives. If that is to be construed literally, then ninety-nine members could not be a House. A single member resigning would destroy the House, if the law is to be construed literally. The Constitution provides that a majority of the members elected can enact a law or pass a joint resolution. If these gentlemen who stand outside the bar are not members, then they are not members elected and the thirty or so members that are here are the Senate, and we can transact any business we choose.
The Lieutenant Governor-If the Senator will allow me, the Constitution also provides that it shall take two-thirds of each House to constitute a quorum to do business. And with less than that number, only certain acts can be done. On that ground the chair has based its decisions.
Mr. Kinley-But what is a Senate? The members elected here-the thirty or so; and we are therefore able to transact business. It is true that we have no official notice of the fact-that these gentlemen standing outside the bar are members elect. But it is notorious that they have been elected and are refusing to qualify. And that is precisely one of the modes by which a seat can be made vacant. If you, as Lieutenant Governor, had come up here and refused to qualify, that act would vacate your seat, and authorize this Senate to appoint a Lieutenant Governor in your place. If the Governor had refused to qualify, it would have virtually vacated his office. And if a County Treasurer refuse to qualify, it would vacate his office. And so the offices of every one of these gentlemen are virtually vacated. And it is certainly within the power of the Senate not to send for them, as they have already ceased to be members, or, rather never have been members. There are so many vacancies, and it should be so construed.
Mr. Cravens-Would it be competent for this body to declare these seats vacant, when we have no official knowledge ofth.e fact that there have been elections? The resolution before the Senate proposes to fortify us in that particular-to bring out the information.
Mr. Kinley-I believe it is a principle page: 2[View Page 2] of law, that the statute may be plead in evidence. It is law.
Mr. Cravens-Suppose, without information, we should send for these men, and find the men whom we supposed elected were not members. What will our condition then be?
Mr. Kinley-Our condition would be simply that of arresting the wrong men.
Mr. Bradley-I will ask the Senator it we have the power to send for any person until he becomes a member?
Mr. Kinley-That is precisely the point I made; that they are not members. The very fact that they stay around this Hall and refuse to qualify, in my opinion, makes them cease to be members.
Mr. Church-I desire to ask the Senator from Laporte, whether these persons have been privileged from arrest for a certain number of days, by reason of their having been elected?
Mr. Bradley-That is a hard question. I do not know that any of them have been arrested.
Mr. Church-Presuming that they have, what would the Senator say.
Mr. Bradley-I do not know anything about it.
Mr. Church-Then they are enjoying privileges by reason of their election, and refusing to perform the duties they owe to the State.
Mr. Kinley-There is certainly a time when these gentlemen cease to be members.
Mr. Bradley-They will cease to be members whenever we get a sufficient number of members to do business, and declare their seats vacant.
Mr. Kinley-How many members are sufficient.
Mr. Bradley-Thirty-four.
Mr. Kinley-How do you make that out?
Mr. Bradley-By the Constitution of the State.
Mr. Kinley-What article?
Mr. Bradley-Section eleven of article four.
Mr. Kinley-I assure you, Mr. President, there is not one word in the Constitution about it. [Laughter.] The Constitution says the Senate shall not exceed fifty members.
Mr. Bradley-It also says, that the number may be fixed by law. The law fixes the number at fifty; and thirty-four are two-thirds of fifty.
Mr. Kinley-The law says, that the State shall be divided into fifty Senatorial districts. That is what it says. The Senate consists, as a matter of course, of the members elected and qualified. If you allow legislation to be dropped in this way, it is not a mob but a revolution in the State of Indiana. You would established the principle, that a few men, by resigning their places in the Senate, shall defeat all legislation. They can stand here till doomsday, and we have no Senate-no House. It is an outrage alike in violation of common law, common sense, common duty and decency, if the Senate will allow expression. I hold that we shall duty.
Mr. Hamilton, in his seat-Amen [Laughter.]Mr. Gray I have no objection to the passage of this resolution at all. But I can not, for my life, see what good it would accomplish. You pass this resolution enquiring of the Secretary Of State whether the proclamation of the Governor has been complied with; and suppose you get the information that there have been men elected then what do you propose to do? Is there an office in this Government that you can compel a man to discharge the duties of before he has been qualified? Can you punish any man for refusal to discharge the duties of an office, either civil or military, into which he has not been sworn or qualified? I agree with the Senator from Whitley I think our course is plain and simple I would wait, as suggested the other day the five days. Not that we are under obligations to do so, but as a matter of courtesy, because the Constitution gives the General Assembly five days to organize; and because there might be some other difficulties besides the one which exists at present. After the five days have expired, I hold that it is within the province of the Senate to make a declaration of the existing facts and certify to the Governor that these seats are vacant. And I know whereof I speak when I say that when this thing is done, the Governor will issue writs for new elections. And I say further, that when these elections are held somebody will be qualified in this Senate and take their seats, and we will have an organization. Now, sir, upon this question of a quorum I may be in error, but I am honest about it. And, inasmuch as there has been a good deal said in regard to this question, I simply want to ask the Senator from Wayne, purely for the purpose of information, if I understood him to assume the position (as I also understood the Senator from Tippecanoe the other day), that two-thirds of the qualified members constitute a quorum? Am I correct?
Mr. Kinley, in his seat-Yes sir.
Mr. Gray-I can not, I could not, as a Senator, conscientiously discharge my duties in that way.
Mr. Stein-My position is clearly defined. It was this: That two thirds of the members elected and qualified to each House constitute a quorum, provide they are equal to a majority of all the members elected. Since the Constitution requires a majority to assist in the passage of the bill, we necessarily have got to construe section 11 with section 25. The former section is qualified by the latter-We are now a Legislature, and my opinion is, that we have full power to go with legislative business.
Mr. Gray-Then I understand the position of the Senator to be, that if there are page: 3[View Page 3] not twenty-six Senators qualified, there could be no quorum.
Mr. Stein-That is my private opinion.
Mr Gray-But I want to know your public opinion.
Mr. Stein-My private opinion is now publicly expressed. I am not blind to the fact that in these vacant districts the elections have been had. A representative is at liberty to take information from public notoriety. I am at liberty to do that, and I know that elections have been had and hence I concede that to-day we must have twenty-six to make a working body.
Mr. Gray - Then I understand you to hold that there could be no quorum unless there are twenty-six qualified members.
Mr. Stein-If I could take official notice the fact that there had been no election, I would say that we could go on without these districts. It is the privilege of a District not to send a representative if it so chooses. The Constitution does not talk about qualified members.
Mr. Gray-But suppose there were twenty-five qualified members and no more?
Mr. Stein-That would depend upon the other question.
Mr. Gray-If a quorum is two-thirds of the qualified members, there is such a thing as having a quorum in this Senate and that quorum unable to do business. Did anybody ever hear of any such a thing as that? I say a quorum has the power to do any business that comes within its province. If the Senator assumes that two-thirds of the qualified members constitute a quorum, and that quorum has authority to do business without regard to that other section of the Constitution requiring twenty-six members to pass a bill or joint resolution, then his position is inconsistent. If two-thirds of the qualified members can constitute a quorum, then two-thirds of twenty or ten can constitute a quorum.
Mr. Hooper-I do not desire to detain the Senate, and shall not but a moment. If I understand the position of matters now, the President would rule that the resolution is out of order.
The Lieutenant Governor-As far as the resolution before the Senate now is concerned, the Chair will state that on the first day of the session, when the Senator from Vigo [Mr. Scott] offered a resolution, I said that any resolution might be passed in the opinion of the Chair, that looked towards enforcement of our rights under the Constitution; that is, the right to compel the attendance of absent members. The Chair thought the resolution offered by the Senator from Vigo was not that sort of a resolution. The air is of the same opinion as to the resolution offered by the Senator from Tipton [Mr. Green.] The resolution now under consideration proposes to obtain information for the purpose of bringing about the result desired, to-wit: the organization of the Senate. The Chair is unable to see that the passage of the resolution would accomplish the result claimed, but the Chair will not undertake to prejudge. The effect that the passage of this resolution would have in the attainment of the constitutional end in view, and as it claims on its face to be for that purpose, the Chair, with a desire to enforce the Constitutional rule empowering the body to compel the attendance of absent members, will entertain the resolution. Admitting that there is doubts as to its propriety, the Senate being fully competent to determine whether it will accomplish the end it seeks, the Chair will hold the resolution in order, and leave the responsibility with the Senate.
Mr. Hooper-I simply desire to call the attention of the Senate to one fact, which it seems to me has been somewhat overlooked. However, it does seem to me, that the constitution, where it prescribes that two-thirds of each House are necessary to do business, it manifestly has reference to legislative business. It can not in the nature of things, without absolutely prohibiting under certain circumstances the organization of the Legislature, contemplate these preliminary proceedings that are essential to the organization. Suppose two sets of members come up from different districts-and that is not an unusual thing at the commencement and before the organization of a legislative body;who decides these questions at that time? Notwithstanding you may have a provision in the constitution that two-thirds are necessary to do business, here is some business that necessarily has to be passed upon. Now, who determines this question? Why, the majority of members about whose credentials-there is no question. That has been the practice and usage ever since there has been an organization of legislative bodies. A majority of the members, then, determine these questions, without reference to the fact whether the constitution requires two-thirds of the whole number of members or not. That, I take it, is precisely our position to-day, and we have a clear right, in my judgment, to determine these preliminary questions. But when we come to transact legislative business,I believe the requirements of the constitution should be complied with. I differ with the Senator from Tippecanoe, [Mr. Stein] for whose opinion I have great respect. I can not bring myself to believe that we can go on with legislative business with less than the number required by the Constitution. The view I take to-day is, that vacancies exist in all these Districts from which members have failed to take their seats. And while the passage of this resolution may, in the opinion of Senators, be necessary to enable us to determine the question whether vacancies exist or not, I hold that it is patent before us. And we must not forget that, in determining this question, we are the exclusive judges; that there is no power beyond us to settle these page: 4[View Page 4] things. It is for us to determine to-day, whether vacancies exist; and our determination is final in this question. I undertake to say that the evidence is before us that authorizes us to determine this matter. We have the right to take official notice of the fact that elections have been held, and it is notorious that these seats are vacant, and equally notorious that these gentlemen are refusing to qualify. It is not necessary to read the authorities I read a moment ago, but I will call attention to one other.
Vacancies may occur, before the meeting of the Assembly, by members chosen thereto declining to accept the office; after the meeting by their declining to take the oaths or complying with the other conditions, if any, requisite te entitle them to sit and vote.-Lex. Partiam. Am. p. 191.
Now, that is precisely the situation today. These members are required to take the oath of office. They are refusing to do that; and are refusing to come in. We all know-it is manifest-that they are in the city. They are here hanging about the lobbies and the streets. Now, what is our duty?
Mr. Cravens-I ask the Senator whether we would be justifiable in declaring vacancies, until we ourselves have discharged our duty in trying to compel the attendance of absent members? It is notorious that there have been elections, and it is notorious that the men elected are here.
Mr. Hooper-I think, clearly, we would. There are no absent members that we can send for, because, by their acts, the3r have vacated their seats, and are no longer members of this body. Shall we set ourselves up as higher authority than this, which has been the practice and usage, acted upon and recognized as law for centuries. All we can do is to declare vacancies.-It is clear and manifest that these vacancies exist. And it is the plain duty of the presiding officers of either House to certify that fact to the Governor. I apprehend, as the Senator from Randolph (Mr. Gray,) said, that the action of the Governor can be easily judged of; that he would re-issue writs of election in each of the districts. And that is precisely what ought to be done, in my judgment. As expressing my views on this question, I will ask that the following resolution be read, as part of my remarks:
The Secretary read as follows-
Resolved, That the President of the Senate notify the Governor that a vacancy has happened in the office of State Senator at the present session in each of the following Senatorial districts;
- The county of Vanderburgh.
- The counties of Knox and Daviess,
- The counties of Pike, Dubois and Martin.
- The counties of Perry, Orange and Crawford.
- The counties of Washington and Harrison.
- The counties of Floyd and Clark.
- The counties of Ohio and Dearborn.
- The county of Franklin,The counties of Shelby and Bartholomew.
- The counties of Green and Owen
- The counties of Clay and Sullivan.
- The county of Montgomery.
- The counties of Cass and Fulton.
- The counties of Grant, Blackford and Jay.
- The counties of Huntington and Wells
- The county of Allen.
- The counties of Allen and Adams,
by the members elect from said districts refusing to qualify and take their seats at the present session of the General Assembly.
Mr. Hooper-That is expressive of views upon this question. (He then read from the general statute which requires the presiding officer in such cases to give such notice to the Governor, without giving the reference.)
Mr. Cravens-The Senator proposes declare these seats vacant. I would ask him if we should not have our own skirts clear before making such a declaration. In the first place, we have no information concerning them. I do not know but they are restrained of their liberty. In my judgment, and with due deference I think they are. [Laughter.] And it might be necessary for us to interpose the authority of this body to have them released. [Laughter continued.]
Mr. Robinson, of Madison-I understand that Thomas A. Hendricks and Joseph E. McDonald are restraining them of their liberty. [Laughter renewed.]
Mr. Hooper-I think that a kind of restraint not necessary for us to take cognizance of.
I admit that it is a question for each one of us, on our individual responsibility, to determine whether vacancies exist. Other Senators may differ with me, but as far as I am concerned, to my mind, under my obligation, I undertake to say that the evidence is before me of the fact) that they refuse to come in and quality! I see them in the Halls of this House, in this city. I meet them in the street. I know that they are here, and that they are refusing to come in and qualify. And I have authority to sustain me in saying, that, by refusing to qualify, they "have created vacancies in every one of these districts. Therefore the evidence is before me, by which I am authorized to declare, that vacancies exist in every one of these districts.
Perhaps here I ought to close my remarks. However, one remark by the Senator form Laporte, [Mr. Bradley], in reply to my first speech, does seem to demand a passing reply. He talks something about revolution-that this proceeding would be revolutionary, what we are attempting to do. Nothing in my judgment, would be further from it. I abhor anything of that sort as much as the Senator from Laporte can. For that very reason, I would not resort to anything of doubtful expediency. I can not therefore,enter into any arrangement to organize this body, without the necessary number of qualified members. I would not the State into the sea of litigation, would necessarily follow.
Mr. Bradley-Is the act of declaring vacancies a legislative act.
Mr. Hooper-It is not a legislative act page: 5[View Page 5] at this time. It is not a legislative act-I will answer squarely. It is a question that comes up at the organization, and for the purpose of prefecting the organization of the legislative body.
Mr. Bradley - If it is not a legislative act, where does the body get the power to perform such an act?
Mr. Hooper - From the nature of things. It goes behind any legislation. I thought I made that matter plain in the commencement of my remarks. I do not think it necessary to have two-thirds to pass upon such questions as these, which are preliminary questions. If the other construction is to be placed upon this matter, then we have a provision which, in many instances, would destroy a legislative body entirely. I believe that it is clearly within the record to declare these seats vacant, and that there is nothing revolutionary about it. These vacancies exist as manifestly as if these parties were physically dead. They are politically dead, and I don't know but I might say dead and damned. If that don't constitute a vacancy, I do not know what does.
Mr. Rice-I can not see that this resolution will get us out of difficulty, I see there are no Senators here from the vacant districts, and were we to get the returns from the Secretary of State, that would not bring them here. That certain men were elected, we all know, but until they appear and are sworn in, they are not Senators. Most assuredly you can not force an office upon a man; you can not make him take the oath; you can not make a man a member of this Senate against his will. When the resolution has spent its force and brings up the fact that these election papers are on file in the Secretary's office-until these members come upon this floor and are qualified, they have no rights here; they are not Senators. I think the Senator from Whitley (Mr. Hooper) takes a broad view of this question of declaring vacancies. I have seen Senators come in and take the oath after two weeks; and, according to his views, you would declare their seats vacant. I know of one member of the House in 1865 who did not appear till within a few days of the end of the session, and the House never thought of ignoring his right.
You say you want to find out whether these men have been elected- what for? To see whether there has been any resignation? No. The resolution says, to compel the attendance of absent members. If they are not members, how can you compel their attendance? I will tell you where the difficulty is, and the people will hold us to a strict accountability. These members will come into their seats in five minutes. When I left home, I cam with instructions from every man I spoke to, to postpone this constitutional amendment. Say we will postpone it for ten, fifteen or twenty days. You can give assurance by a vote that the sense of this Senate is that the question should be postponed.
Mr. Scott, in his seat-I never will.
Voices"Never, never!"
Mr. Rice-Then people will hold you to a strict responsibility. Your hold upon the confidence of the people will slip from you in about two years, and this party "you have been battling will come into' power. You stand upon the technical ground of pride. You stand upon dignity, whilst there are men out here waiting to be fed; and there is no appropriation to feed the insane, the deaf, the dumb and the blind. And the great Republican party is standing upon a matter of pride and dignity! The people will sweep the matter of dignity out of the way. I admit and say, that these Democratic gentlemen are refractory, I would put myself upon no humiliating terms by signing an agreement. I would organize as we are, and say, as gentlemen and as honorable men, that we will take up the necessary legislation and pass it, arid when the time comes, we will take up the Constitutional admendment and pass it, if we can; and let them take care of themselves.
Mr. Church interposed-I suppose the Senator acknowledges that he owes these gentlemen a debt, and he agrees to pay them, but proposes to give a note?
Mr. Rice-No sir. I do not acknowledge that I owe them a debt.
Mr. Cravens-I am willing, for one, to contract that they may fix the day when the measure you speak of shall be considered, on condition that they will not be revolutionary again, but let the vote be taken.
Mr. Rice-I want an organization; and I am willing to postpone the consideration of the amendment to a day certain. I am willing that they shall run the gauntlet, whether they get out before we pass it or not.
Mr. Bradley-I will ask whether the Senator does not believe that this minority, which he calls a faction, or fraction, represent the will of a majority of 75,000 of the people of this State?
Mr. Rice-I have no means of answering.
Mr. Bradley-I ask whether they do not reflect the will of a majority of 75,000?
Mr. Rice-The Senator knows I can not answer that. The Democrats themselves did not vote in their districts by a thousand or so. It would be a mere expression of opinion.
Mr. Church-I would ask if the same Constitution that protects these gentlemen from arrest, the same Constitution that keeps us here day after day without a quorum; if the same Constitution that prevents our doing business won't protect the minority in their rights after they come in?
Mr. Rice-Of course it will protect them. These men are not Senators. I can arrest every last one of them to-day, by legal process. They have never taken the oath page: 6[View Page 6] of office. They are not privileged from arrest. History gives a different expression of this matter. A few years ago the Republicans were in the minority here; and they required a pledge from the majority in the Senate then in session, that certain bills should not be taken up. They did not give it, except in the way we now propose. The result was, the Republicans held the Legislature at Madison and defeated legislation. These gentlemen are now playing the same game on you.
Mr. Bradley, in his seat-No.
Mr. Rice-These men went before the people and were put out of power. And it' you take the same stand the Democracy'did at that session, you will be put out of power too. I do not compare the two cases. I justify the men of 1863. It was a time of rebellion and revolution. It was necessary to save the Government intact. They have a precedent, and claim that they have a right
Mr. Church, interrupting-I will ask the Senator if he don't know that the reason these Democrats were put out of power was, not because of their acts here, but because of th rebellious acts of that party in this Government?
Mr. Rice-Both. Everything conspired against them. And this was an element against them-an element of weakness. They were endeavoring to pass a bill revolutionary in its tendency.
The Senator from Laporte says that 75,000 majority of the people of this State are against this amendment. These gentlemen come back instructed by their constituents to resign again, if necessary, so as to bring that thing before the people. I am not arguing this thing for them, and I don't intend to. You might as well accept the state of facts at once, and not spend time in talking and standing upon a point of dignity. You say to them, come in. But you forget that you are in the majority, and they are in the minority. They say, give us an assurance that you will do a certain business in a certain way, and they will come in. These men have a right to come in and be sworn or not be sworn. And it is your right to do just as you are doing;" but you take the consequences too. My people want legislation, and I came here to do it. And I want to get away as quick as possible when it is done. I am willing to give that assurance, and do it now for myself-and I speak alone for myself. I give the assurance that we will go ahead with the regular business of legislation; that we will pass the necessary appropriation bills, and other bills which come op for the consideration of the Senate; and that, at a day to be fixed by the Senate, or at a time indefinite, we will take that amendment up and try to pass it.
Mr. Henderson-Have you assurance that any other Senators will stand with you?
Mr. Rice-I have. And I think the Democratic caucus had a paper that assured them of that.
Mr. Green-Here is the count if it will do you any good. I see it stands 23 to 25.
Mr. Rice-I make these remarks, because it might as well be done here as caucus. The sooner we understand ourselves the better. I think the people the State demand that something shall be done, and, if necessary, that we give some assurance in regard to this matter. I know that the feeling of the people is with me. I made it a particular point to get an expression from every man of note I could meet; and that is the universal expression, and I am going to reflect it. You may talk about seats being vacant but the people will ask you how the came to be vacant. The people will also ask, what is the reason they were kept vacant? Why, we are dignified fellows!
Mr. Scott, interrupting-Do you say they had pledges from enough to control the action of the Legislature?
Mr. Rice-I so understand it. I say you stand upon dignity-
Mr. Scott, interrupting.I have given an individual statement, and if they are not willing to take my word as a man of honor-
Mr. Rice-What individual statement?
Mr. Scott-I am willing to give these gentlemen all the time they want to get out, if they want to leave-if it is one two, or five days.
Mr. Rice-That is my very proposition, and I want the Senate to make it here And, this afternoon, we will have a Senate.
Mr Fisher-A proposition of that kind has been made and signed in writing by a sufficient number of members of the two houses to control that thing. That was given with the assurance from certain members that it would be satisfactory. I signed such a paper. I came here with a view to do that very thing. And I have no hesitancy in saying it in the Senate, out of doors, on paper, or anywhere else.
Mr. Rice-I say that is all this Senate should ask. I desire to draw out Senators, so that these men who are here can report to their men the feeling and animus of this Senate in regard to that question. A better thing could be not done, than to reduce the proposition of the Senator from Vigo [Mr. Scott] to paper, and send it to them.
Voices-"Never," "never!"
Mr. Gray-What is it?
Mr. Rice-To give some assurance to these gentlemen.
Mr. Church-I never will give them a pledge of any kind.
Mr. Robinson of Madison-Inasmuch as assurances should be given by the Republican majority-seventeen members of the two Houses have signed a proposition, which has been before this Democratic caucus. And these seventeen have the power to control this question. And the caucus have rejected that proposition page: 7[View Page 7] by a vote of 25 to 23. All I have to say in regard to that fact is, that I signed that paper. I signed it in the first place to test the sincerity of the Democratic party; to know whether they were willing to come in and take their seats and do the legislation necessary or not. If they vote down this proposition, and refuse to they are insincere and hypocritical. I defy them to go before the State of Indiana with having rejected that proposition. They have been in caucus two days upon that question.
Mr Bradley-If the Senator will allow me. Of course I don't want to say anything about what took place in a Democratic caucus but I desire to say that that question has not been disposed of. They are now discussing it at the other end of the Capitol.
Mr Robinson-How long does it require to dispose of a question in a Democratic caucus?
Mr. Bradley, in his seat-Large bodies move slowly.
Mr. Robinson, of Madison-The vote this morning did not indicate a large body.
Mr. Cravens-I understand that it takes some time to investigate the character for truth and veracity, and the standing of the signers of that paper. [Laughter.]
Mr. Robinson, of Madison-As far as that question is concerned, the truth and veracity of these gentlemen have never been affected by charges of the Democratic party, and I think never will. I say, the proposition was made, and the Democratic party have been considering it. And if that proposition is accepted, it is clear to every Senator that legislation can be done. And if the Democratic party are sincere, they will accept that proposition. I do not want to make a speech. I think this matter ought to be talked over in a Republican caucus, and not here. Gentlemen have their views and opinions, and there we can reconcile those views and opinions.
Mr. Fisher-I have listened patiently, and have been entertained by the remarks of Senators, and have gleaned a good deal of information. I rise riot with the hope of imparting information, nor with a desire to make a speech. It seems to me that we have got entirely off the question under consideration. That question is the adoption of the resolution of the Senator from Jefferson (Mr. Cravens.) There certainly can be no harm in the adoption of the resolution. There could be no harm in eliciting the information it seeks to obtain. It may do good. We see certain gentlemen traversing about streets and these Halls who, we suppose, are members of this body, but we have no evidence it. We want that evidence. There is a way of reaching it. This resolution points out that way, and I think we should adopt it. When we get that information, if we can make it it, available, why, do so. It costs nothing. I know what the design of the Democratic members in regard to the Legislature is. These men who report themselves as members elect-and I suppose they are, because some of them I know to be honorable men-all, indeed, that I have had any conversation with-profess to have an earnest desire to progress with the legislation of the State. That is what they come here for. But they have not yet taken their seats. They decline to take their seats. They say, the design is to spring that amendment: and unless you make certain pledges, we won't come in. Now, as a body, I do not think it proper to make them any pledges. As an individual, I am ready to make a pledge; and have. My understanding was, that the pledge of a sufficient number to control action, with their assistance, would be acceptable. I thought it a great letting down of dignity to grant that pledge. I thought they had no right to require that pledge. Their duty was to come in here, as was our duty, and take their seats. I hold that they had no right to require any condition precedent; and, as a body, I am opposed to giving it. As an individual, if I have a mind to lower my own dignity by signing a pledge of that kind, I have aright to do it.
Mr. Church interposed-I would ask the Senator if that is not an indecent and corrupt proposition.
Mr. Fisher-I do not know about that. I hold that they had no right to make us any proposition. Their duty was to be sworn in. We, being members sworn and qualified to do our duty, could not meet them upon equal terms, because they are not such-they are not Senators in the general acceptation of the term. They are Senators elect. We are Senators in office. Enough of us have given pledges to assure them that one day's notice shall be given them before the constitutional amendment is taken up. If they are not satisfied, it is clear that they are either insincere in a desire to meet us and do the necessary legislation of the State, or else it is their desire to get some political advantage. The pledges which have been given secure them against the very thing they dread the nigger. It secures them fully, and gives them power to prevent its being pushed upon them. They are not satisfied, but they want something else, and that is political advantage. And if we are prudent and cautious, we will not give that. If they are not willing to accept what is given them, which is ample, let them take their own course. I hope we will pass this resolution, and adjourn till Monday.
After further debate, in which Messrs. Church, Fisher, Bradley and Cravens took part, the resolution submitted by Mr. Cravens was adopted-yeas 28, nays 2.
And then-
On motion of Mr. Cravens the Senate took a recess till 2:30 o'clock.
page: 8[View Page 8]AFTERNOON SESSION.
The Lieutenant Governor resumed, and ordered the roll call and a call of the unrepresented districts. Twenty-four Senators answered.
Mr. Wolcott-As the Senate has now no business before it, I move that we adjourn till Monday at 2 o'clock.
Mr. Cravens-I would like to know before we adjourn whether there has been any response from the Secretary of State.
The Lieutenant Governor-The Secretary informs me that the resolution has been received, but no response has been made.
And then the Senate adjourned.
