THE BREVIER LEGISLATIVE REPORTS.
TENTH VOLUME.
INDIANA LEGISLATURE.
IN SENATE.
THURSDAY, February 18, 1869.The Senate was called to order at ten o'clock, a. m., pursuant to adjournment, the Lieutenant Governor in the chair.
The Secretary's journal of yesterday was being read when--
On motion of Mr. CHURCH the further reading thereof was dispensed with.
PETITIONS ETC.
Described as follows were presented and referred to appropriate committees:
By Mr. CARSON, a petition praying for protection to the Medical profession, a Medical department in the State University, etc.
By Messrs. BEARDSLEY and CASE, for a Homeopathic Department in the proposed State Medical College.
By Mr. HUGHES, the claims of J. I. Morrison and others on account of serunces on the Morgan raid Commission.
By. Messrs. KINLEY and HENDEKSON, for a prohibitory liquor law.
By Mr. BIRD, for the repeal of the gravel road law.
By Mr. CAVEN, the claim of Elijah W. Halford for services on the Sanitary Commission.
REPORTS FROM COMMITTEES.
By Mr. BELLAMY, from the Committee on Education, returning the bill, [S. 100] for the relief of the State University, with amendments, recommending its passage.
By Mr. KINLEY, from the same Commitree, returning the bill, [S. 9] with a recommendation that it lie upon the table, as its provisions are incorporated in Senate bill No. 244.
By Mr. WOOD, from the same committee, returning the bill, [S. 107] to amend section two of the act for the incorporation of county libraries, recommending its passage.
These reports were concurred in.
By Mr. HUGHES, from the Committee on Expenditures, reporting a resolution requesting the attendance of Gen. Thomas M. Browne, late attorney for the Morgan Raid Commissioners, before that Committee in order to have the benefit of his information.
The resolution was adopted.
By Mr. CAVEN, from the Committee on the Judiciary, returning the bill, [S. 101] to authorize the Trustees of the State University to establish a Medical College, recommending that it lie on the table, as the provisions are incorporated in Senate bill No. 197.
The bill was referred to the Committee on Education.
By Mr. ROBINSON of Madison, from the same committee, returning the bill, [S. 255] to save pending suits effected by the repeal of sections forty-three and forty-four of the act concerning wills, recommending its passage.
The report was concurred in.
GEOLOGICAL CABINET.
By Mr. REYNOLDS, from the Committee on Agriculture, to which was referred the letter of Prof. Richard Owen, concerning the Geological and Mineralogical Cabinet of David Dale Owen, returning it with a recommendation that it lie on the table.
Mr. FISHER understood the collection to be an exceedingly valuable one, and if it could be purchased at a reasonable sum he would be glad to have it done. He thought this matter ought not to be passed over without farther inquiry.
page: 406[View Page 406]Mr. HUGHES thought it ought to be purchased for the Agricultural College; and remarked that two years ago, Monroe county offered this cabinet, worth about fifty thousand dollars, as an inducement to have the Agricultural College located there. The subject had better lie on the table until the Agricultural College shall be located.
Mr. FISHER insisted that the State should possess this cabinet, and wished the letter read. It recites that while the cabinet is worth fully fifty thousand dollars, it will be sold by the family for twenty thousand dollars.
Mr. JAQUESS never saw this letter, though a member of the Agricultural Committee, and representing the county in which the labratory was kept. He was satified that money could not be better expended than in the purchase of this cabinet.
Mr. GIFFORD said the chairman of the committee had labored faithfully to get the committee together--the members were careless about attending--and if the Senator had no notice of the last meeting it was a mistake.
Mr. JAQUESS always attended when he could.
The report was concurred in.
REPORTS FROM COMMITTEES.
By Mr. HOWK, from the Committee on the Judiciary, returning the bill, [S. 253] to enable the several criminal courts to try and determine suits upon forfeited recognizances, recommending its passage.
By Mr. CAVEN, from the same Committee, returning Senate concurrent resolution proposing an amendment to the Constitution of the State of Indiana, preventing the passage of any law or resolution making the State liable for any certificates of stock issued in pursuance of an act passed January 19, 1846, or an act supplemental to said act, passed January 19, 1849,-- [to the effect that the State would not, under any circumstances, assume the payment of the Wabash and Erie Internal Improvement Debt]--recommending its passage.
These reports were concurred in.
THE EVENING MIRROR.
By Mr. CAVEN, from the Committee on the Judiciary, to which was referred the resolution of inquiry concerning the article in the Evening Mirror, charging Mr. Hughes with acting as the paid attorney of the State University in the Senate, reporting that the article referred to was based upon an anonymous communication, alleged to have been received through the post office, and that the charge had no foundation in fact.
Mr. RICE called for the reading of the testimony taken.
The testimony was read, Geo. C. Harding, the Editor, stating his belief that Joseph J. Bingham, was the author. Mr. Bingham testifies that he had no knowledge of it.
The PRESIDENT pro tem., stated that the report was imperfect, insomuch as it makes no recommendation. It would be for the Senator to take such course as it saw proper.
Mr. HUGHES said it was not for him to indicate the course the Senate should pursue. The Mirror instead of retracting its charge, repeated from day to day its attack and charged the whole Senate, or a large portion thereof, with corruption. He expressed his belief that the editor of the Mirror never received any anonymous letter. That individual sent an excuse for not appearing before the Committee on the first night appointed, on the ground of being sick, when he was not sick, but was about the streets and at the Palmer House. He believed him capable of forging the letter, as a pretended foundation for the article.
Mr. H. said the Cincinnati Commercial of yesterday, contains not only an implied repetition of this charge, but strong reflections upon the Governor and this entire General Assembly; and he denounced the correspondent, (J. H. Lozier,) in unmeasured terms, declaring that the Doorkeeper should be instructed to exclude him from the Senate Chamber.
On motion by Mr. LASSELLE, the report and the evidence in the case, was ordered to be spread on the journals of the Senate. He did not see that anything else could be done.
Mr. FISHER offered the following:
WHEREAS, The Evening Mirror, a newspaper published in this city, abounds from day to day with scandalous attacks upon the Senate and upon individual Senators, therefore,
RESOLVED, That the Doorkeeper be instructed to he discontinue the subscription on the part of the Senate of said newspaper.
Mr. HANNA insisted that it was rather a grave matter to fight newspapers, and counseled moderation. With regard to the Cincinnate Commercial, Parson Lozier having sung songs all over the State in favor of the Republican ticket, and having been the bosom friend of the Governor, may possess more knowledge of what he writes than the editor of the Mirror. We don't know anything about this kind of a fight over one who ought to know about his friends, and perhaps it might be doing him injustice to expell him from the floor of the Senate.
Mr. GRAY is a friend to the press, and thought the Senator from Monroe had been fully and completely vindicated. We should not act hastily in the matter. In the early part of the session this paper had a good deal to say about other members and no such resolution was proposed. He did not think it could annihilate us in eighteeen days remaining of the session.
Mr. FISHER supposed it was a mere mat- page: 407[View Page 407] ter of speculation on the part of the paper, but thought we should not continue to support papers which continually maligned members.
Mr. ROBINSON of Madison, asked whether we could now discontinue the subscription under the contract.
Mr. FISHER believed it could be done with any of the newspapers here, as none of them had published full proceedings.
Mr. HANNA thought the paper had gone too far, but opposed the resolution.
Mr. HUGHES believed more time and prominence was given to the matter than it was deserving of, while so much business of importance is pressing. Persons at a distance cannot understand this matter as well as Senators here. He requested the author to withdraw the resolution and let the matter go. He thought the Senate, at some proper time, should take action in regard to the correspondence he alluded to, but that is another matter.
Mr. FISHER had no feeling upon the subject, and accordingly withdrew the resolution cheerfully.
REPORTS FROM COMMITTEES.
By Mr. FISHER, from the Committee on Agriculture, returning the bill, [S. 174] to provide for the measurement of corn and hay in bulk, recommending its passage.
By Mr. RICE, from the Committee on the Judiciary, returning the bill, [S. 175] defining who shall be competent witnesses, with amendments, recommending its passage.
By Mr. HANNA, from the same committee, returning the bill, [S. 248] to amend section three of the act of 1865, relating to witnesses, recommending that it lie on the table.
By Mr. JOHNSON of Spencer, from the Committee on Rights and Privileges, returning the bill, [S. 249] to provide for the erection of fish ladders, recommending its passage.
By Mr. GIFFORD, from the special committee on medical legislation, returning the bill, [S. 113] providing for the registration of the practicing physicians of the State, recommending that it lie upon the table.
These reports were severally concurred in.
RESOLUTIONS.
Mr. GRAY offered a resolution, which was adopted, requesting the Auditor of State to furnish an itemized account of the Governor's expenditures.
Mr. ANDREWS offered a resolution allowing the Committees on State prisons extra pay for visiting the same.
Mr. JOHNSTON of Montgomery, moved to amend by allowing their actual expenses, except whisky, etc.
On motion by Mr. BIRD. the resolution and amendment were laid on the table.
Mr. HENDERSON offered a resolution, which was adopted, giving the same places in the standing committees to Senator Montgomery that were occupied by his predecessor.
Mr. WOLCOTT offered a resolution requesting a copy of Prof. Daniel Reed's lecture, delivered last evening in the Hall of the House, and ordering live hundred copies printed.
At Mr. CHURCH'S suggestion, the mover changed the number of copies to one thousand.
Mr. HANNA offered an amendment, which was agreed to, provided the House does not print the same address.
The resolution, as amended, was adopted.
THE OLD STATE DEBT.
Mr. CARSON offered a concurrent resolution, as follows:
Be it Resolved, By the Senate, the House of Representatives concurring, that the action of the Governor of the state of Indiana, and his agent, the Adjutant General, in the settlement of the old Internal Improvement Bonds, held by the General Government in trust for certain Indian tribes, referred to in his message of 1869 to the General Assembly, was unauthorized by the laws of the State of Indiana.
RESOLVED, That the General Assembly of the State of Indiana should make no provision for the payment of the principal or interest due, or to become due, on the old Internal Improvement Bonds, except as provided in the acts of 1845 and 1847, known as the "Butler Bills."
RESOLVED, That the action of the Governor in the settlement, through his agent, the Adjutant General, of $250,000 advanced to Governor Morton by the President of the United States, in 1863, was unauthorized by law, and that no legislation sanctioning the settlement of the matters embraced in these resolutions and referred to by the Governor in his message, as embraced in the report of the Adjutant General, should be entertained or proposed by the General Assembly.
Mr. HUGHES raised a point of order as to the consideration of the first resolution, the Senate already taken definite action upon the subject matter of it.
The LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR decided the point well taken, and declared the resolution out of order--it containing matter heretofore indefinitely postponed.
Mr. CARSON then withdrew his resolution.
Mr. WOLCOTT called up his concurrent resolution proposing an amendment to the constitution of the State so that no law shall be passed to pay any stock issued to pay the old Internal Improvement or Wabash and Erie Canal Debt.
Mr. WOLCOTT, in reciting the history of this matter was understood to say that the first proposition made by the creditors in 1847 was to take the Canal and eight hundred thousand acres of land, and from the sale of the lands and the use of the canal derive what revenue they could in payment of the obligationthe State reserving the right to redeem. The act of 1846 by the thirty second section thereof pro- page: 408[View Page 408] vided a different arrangement. The thirty second section is this:
SEC. 32. It shall be optional with the State, at any time hereafter, to call in and require a surrender of the outstanding stock issued under the first section of this act, by giving to the holders of such stock a new certificate for the one-half of the principle thereof, to bear interest at and after the rate of five per centum per annum, and which principal and interest shall be payable and redeemable by the State out of the revenues thereof; the principal to be payable at the pleasure of the State, and by giving to such holder another certificate for the other half of the principal of such stock, to bear a like interest of five per centum per annum, and to be paid and redeemed, and only paid and redeemed out of said canal lands, and the tolls and revenues of said canal as provided in the eighth section of this act and from and after the time that the State shall call in said stock, issued under the first section of this act, and shall issue new certificates as aforesaid, the State, its faith and revenues shall be only pledged and responsible for the payment of one-half of said principal and interest at the rate of five per centum per annum thereon, and fertile other half of said principal and interest the holders of said certificates shall look solely and exclusively to said canal and the tolls and revenues of said canal, as provided in the eighth section aforesaid of this act; Provided, however, that the State shall have the option of redeeming said canal certificates out ot the revenues of said State, in the same manner as if this sec ion were not adopted; And, provided farther, that the excess of the revenues of said canal lands and tolls, and the revenues of said canal over paying said interest of five per centum per annum on said canal stock, (if any there be) shall be applied to the redemption and absolute retirement of said canal stocks.
The first section of the act of 1847, adopted the above reservation in the thirty-second section of the act of 1846.
The canal represented one half the debt only--the State issued bonds for the payment of the other half; so there was transferred to the creditors property costing the State double the amount of the debt, and in addition to that was added eight hundred thousand acres of very valuable land. All this: the works, internal improvements, side cuts and eight hundred thousand acres of land were turned over. Now, probably by a cause which could not be foreseen, the schedule and lands have failed to pay off the incumberances against the property and yet the debt is charged against the State. The object of this resolution is to confirm the agreement heretofore made by the State on this subject and to remove and settle this question for all time to come. It is a question in which the people feel there is some danger.
But it is said: Why press this question now? In answer I will say, The creditors are pressing this question.
Mr. SCOTT (interposing.) Does the gentleman consider there is any legal liability on the part of the State to pay these creditors'?
Mr. WOLCOTT. I do not know. Some think there is however. Still they are here before this General Assembly, and they have been here before this. The Trustees have deviated from their true duties and their trust and come here as advocates of this canal interest, and it is not the first time. [Here Mr. W. read from the report of the Trustees of the Wabash and Erie Canal to show that they were trying, argumentively, to raise the presumption that there still exists a debt on the part of the State and that the canal property is simply held as collateral]
Our Agent of State frequently met persons engaged in buying up the certificates of stock representing claims against this security, and when he told them that these claims would not be recognized in Indiana, he was told that the fund was so large they could bribe the General Assembly. Now in view of the fact that such reports come to us from the Agent of State, and that the canal Trustees themselves, have become advocates of these bondholders, I have introduced this resolution for an amendment to the Constitution which when confirmed by the people will only reaffirm the act or contract of 1846 and 1847.
Mr. CARSON. Mr. President: This is an important subject. It is of too much importance to be passed lightly by. I was the author of the original proposition at the last session of the Legislature to incorporate in the Constitution a provision that the State was not to incur any liability on account of the Wabash and Erie Canal. I then stated that it was a proposition I was not prepared to discuss, but should it be passed upon at that General Assembly, when the next General Assembly met, that Assembly and the people could act upon it more intelligently. Since that time I have informed myself more fully upon the subject, and can see its magnitude and importance. I do not concede that the State has ever parted with the fee simple of the Wabash and Erie Canal. I do not concede that the bondholders or the Trustees of the Wabash and Erie Canal held it for any other purpose than as a matter of trust, and when the object of that trust is accomplished it will revert to the State of Indiana. Now, sir, it is a little too late in the forenoon to continue any extended remarks and I will move that the Senate adjourn.
The motion was agreed to.
And then--
The Senate took a recess till two o'clock, p. m.
AFTERNOON SESSION.
The Lieutenant Governor resumed the chair at two o'clock, p. m.
On motion by Mr. KINLEY, the pending resolutions were laid on the table in order to make way for the special order.
Mr. KINLEY then moved to make his temperance bill, [S. 36] the special order for ten o'clock a. m., to-morrow.
page: 409[View Page 409]Mr. RICE spoke of the difficulty of transacting business when special orders occupy the entire time.
Mr. BRADLEY and Mr. GREEN objected to the motion on the same ground.
The motion was rejected.
On motion by Mr. BELLAMY, the vote was reconsidered by which his First Judicial District bill, [S. 178] was passed.
By leave, he offered an amendment thereto, which was agreed to.
And then the bill again passed the Senate by yeas 41, nays 0.
Mr. HANNA, in justice to his constituents, appealed to have his bill [S. 133] concerning the re-location of county seats read the third time now. He was compelled to leave his seat for an indefinite length of time, being called away by a telegram, and desired to have this bill passed to-day. He moved for a suspension of the regular order for that purpose.
The motion was agreed to, the bill was read the third time, and passed the Senate by yeas 33, nays 7.
THE OMNIBUS UNIVERSITY BILL.
The LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR then announced the special order for this hour--being the consideration of Mr. Hughes' State University bill, [S. 197] Mr. Robinson of Madison in the chair.
Mr. WOLCOTT desired to offer a substitute.
The CHAIRMAN decided it out of order there being an amendment, and an amendment to the amendment pending.
Mr. CHURCH withdrew the amendment to amendment.
Mr. FISHER. Mr. Chairman: I do not know that I shall be able to throw any light upon this question or give any valuable information or suggestions, but what I may say may bring out from others something valuable. The question of Education is one of very great importance, and perhaps few persons have experienced the want of Education to a greater extent than myself. It is urged that the State is not in a condition to expend the large sums of money that the bill contemplates. Upon that point, for one, I have no doubt but the State is able to do it; and for no other purpose will the people of the State so freely pay taxes as for the cause of Education. As to this being the best disposition that could be made of that sum of money, is another question. And that is a point I wish to inquire into. If the plan proposed by that bill is the best plan, then I am in favor of adopting it. If a better one can be divised then I am in favor of that.
I admit the opposition to the bill is sectarian, to the same extent as the advocacy of it is sectarian. We all are in favor of our own. We look to our own interests in preference to those of others. There is in the State of Indiana a College under the control and support of the New School Presbyterian Church located at Crawfordsville; there is one under the control of the Methodists at Greencastle; there is one under the control of the Reformers or Christian Church in this city; there is one under the control of the Baptist Church at Franklin, and there is one under the control of the old School Presbyterian Church at Hanover. All these Colleges are sustained by private munificence. No one of them draws a dollar from the public treasury, and they are sustained by the particular denominations which control them, and they are patronized almost exclusively by that particular denomination of christians which established them. These Colleges are the two penny Colleges, as the Senator from Tippecanoe denominated them. But let me say that these five denominations would be a power if they could be combined; and happy is it they are not combined. Each in its separate department is laboring to maintain the institutions which reflects the sentiments of its supporters. The University at Bloomington was originally built by lands given by the people of the United States. It is sustained by about six thousand dollars given annually by the United States and it is the peoples property. And it is sustained by the further endowment of eight thousand dollars by the State of Indiana, while not one dollar of endowment from the State of Indiana is attached to either of the Colleges I have referred to. The State University is not a sectarian College.
Now I submit whether this bill proposes the best appropriation that can be made of this twenty-five thousand dollars sought to be appropriated? I have drawn up an amendment which I propose to offer when in order. It is this: "Amending by striking out all of the first section after the enacting clause and insert the following: That there be and is hereby appropriated the sum of five thousand dollars annually to each of the following Colleges to-wit: Wabash, at Crawfordsville; Asbury, at Greencastle; North Western Christian, at Indianapolis; Franklin College, at Franklin; and Hanover, located at Hanover in Jefferson county." Now, sir, if that amendment prevails then I have sundry other amendments which I wish to offer unless some other Senator offers them to this bill. I propose to indicate them now. I propose if that amendment prevails to further amend the bill by striking out all that relates to the establishment of a Medical University in this city; retaining only that part of that section which provides for the sale of University square; and also to apply the proceeds of the sale of that square to the State University, where I believe it absolutely belongs. And I propose to further page: 410[View Page 410] amend by striking out all that relates to the establishment of an Agricultural College in Tippecanoe county; and appropriating the fund arising from the donation of lands by Congress to the State University for the purpose of establishing in connection with that University an Agricultural Department. I do this upon the firm conviction and belief that there is not an institution in the world where an Agricultural College as a separate and independent institution has been a success. Valuable it may be, connected with the State University or any other College, but as an independent thing I am prepared to give my opinion that it has ever proved a failure and ever will. Hence, whatever may be the action of the Senate upon the amendments I think of proposing I cannot vote to locate the Agricultural College any where as a separate and distinct institution. I would rather the General Government should resume the grant. I would rather the two hundred and thirty or two hundred and forty thousand dollars of five-twenties be returned to the General Government and that much of the national debt paid with them. I think such an institution would not only be worthless, but would incur a debt to maintain it.
With regard to the Nornal School, if that were a new question, I would oppose the appropriation. As it is, the State has got an investment there, and I hesitate whether it is right and proper to extend or let the appropriation go. Each of the counties I represent have a graded school in which any persons seeking to qualify themselves as teachers can be accommodated at home in their own county. They are taught by teachers competent to teach all that is necessary to be known by common school teachers. If the amendments I have suggested prevail, I am ready to vote for the bill either with or without the appropriation for the Normal School, as the Senate pleases.
As a whole I cannot vote for this bill. With the amendment of the Senator from Montgomery the bill is useless. If the twenty-five thousand dollars is placed in these five different colleges and thus divided to all parts of the State, in my opinion it will result in more good than if it were concentrated together. True it will not build up a great, towering institution that will overslaugh every thing else, like an overgrown aristocrat among laborers. And it is not policy to make this distinction in this Democratic State. We should dispense these things in such a way as will bring the greatest good to the greatest number. These amendments will diffuse the benefits of this fund generally throughout the community, and put these Colleges on a foundation that will make them live and prosper.
Mr. HANNA, Mr. Chairman: What I shall say will be more by way of suggestion upon the subject of the validity of this act than an argument against it. I do not think this is a constitutional way of legislating. We have a provision in the Constitution of this State which declares that every act shall embrance but one subject, and matters properly connected therewith. Now what is the subject of this act: Here is a bill which contains four distinct propositions: first, in reference to the State University; second, the establishment of a Medical College at Indinapolis; third, in reference to the Normal School at Terre Haute; and fourth, the Agricultural College to be located at the Battle Ground. It is within the recollection of members of this Senate, I suppose, that this clause of the Constitution grew out of the action of our Legislature previous to that time, in clustering together various subjects in one act and burdening the people with enormous taxation. We had the internal improvement system locating a road here and there and a canal here and there, that never could have passed in parcels; but they clustered them together and passed them. The various ideas in this bill are combined for the purpose of giving it strength, the very thing the framers of the Constitution intended to avoid. The intention of this clause in the Constitution is that every distinct subject shall stand upon its own merits and not gather strength by being attached to other propositions.
The woof of which this web is built is the State University. Now what fund does the University possess? At the time of the adoption of the first Constitution of Indiana, there was this provision made by Congress: That one entire Township shall be designated by the President, in addition to the one heretofore reserved, which shall be reserved for a University of learning. That was passed in 1816. Previous to that time there was a grant of one Township. One of these was located in Gibson county, and one in Monroe county. The University building was put up on that one in Monroe county or near it. By a decision of the Supreme Court of the United States and of this State, it was held that the University at Vincennes was entitled to the Township in Gibson county. A compromise was made, because these lands had been used for the State University, between the Trustees of the Vincennes University and the State, by which we issued bonds in order to let the Stat University have the right to proceed with the sale of both these Townships. Congress was prayer to reimburse the State for this Township which the Vincennes University got, and Congress granted another. That makes three, and the land is not all disposed of yet. Those lands were located in about fifteen counties; not exceeding one-third of them is yet disposed of and there page: 411[View Page 411] is a blance of about fifteen thousand acres belonging to the State for the use of the State University. There is a fund of about ninety-three thousand dollars for the use of the State University and there is eight thousand dollars appropriated by the act of two years ago. We are not only asked in this bill to give twenty-five thousand dollars more, but the second section says we are not to withdraw these appropriations.
I am not making a speech against Education; but are we in a condition to give to the State University the proceeds of the interest on ninety-three thousand dollars, eight thousand dollars per annum and $25,000 additional? I say we are not. If it turned out scholars that were a credit to it in early times when it was struggling for an existence, how is it that it is languishing now? Why is it? The eloquent Senator from Monroe tells us it has triumphed over opposition because it was not sectarian in character. I fear it is falling under the influence of sectarianism now, because it is languishing. I fear that is the trouble.
I believe an Agricultural College established separate and by itself will be a total failure, I don't care were it it set up; and I have been and agriculturalist from my earliest youth up. The logic of events force the conclusion that if we expect to derive any benefit from this donation of Congress, we must connect it with some institution of learning--whether with one or more is a question for the wisdom of the Legislature. An Agricultural College separate and isolated, can not live and exist without being a continual drain upon the public treasury. Therefore I am opposed to locating this Agricultural College at any place where it will be a separate institution. I am informed that wherever it has been tried, it has proved a failure.
As to the Normal School, I am very free to say that the Legislature two years ago made a very serious mistake when they determined to build a Normal School at one side of the State, costing two hundred thousand dollars. We could built four in separate quarters of the State for what this one will cost. But now what have we got to do? Members of the Legislature say they were deceived; they thought the appropriation then made ended the thing, but by some twist of the wrist they accepted plans and specifications for a building that will cost two hundred thousand dollars. As far as I am concerned, I would rather donate to Terre Haute what we have already appropriated.
Mr. HUGHES (interposing.) There was no fraud practiced upon members of the Legislature last session in this matter.
If the gentleman will look in the BREVIER REPORTS he will see that he is mistaken.
Mr. HANNA. I was not speaking from my own knowledge. I was only speaking of what had been repeatedly told me. But here we have got a modest proposition for the establishment of a Medical College at Indianapolis. It may be located upon University square or that square may be sold and the proceeds applied to the establishment of this Medical College, and there is five thousand dollars appropriated for contingent expenses. That is starting out very moderate, but two years from now we would be met by the demand for a fifty thousand dollar appropriation. We have got a new State House to build directly and I feel like voting against all appropriation of this kind till we do build one. We have other benevolent institutions against which I do not feel like voting; and yet we are asked to start in an entering wedge for a Medical College that we cannot tell what will be the amount of the cost before we get through. I have referred to the Normal School history to show how modest they will start off with such propositions, and to show that this is the kind of entering wedge they want to get in.
I do not know whether this square, No. 25, belongs to the University or not. There were four sections of land granted to the State in 1816 for a location for the capitol of the State. The grant is to the Legislature of the State by Act of Congress. The title is in the State of Indiana; and because the title is in the State of Indiana, and the University is a State University that University claims square No. 25. Now if I had to form an opinion, as a matter of fact, I would say it was the intention of the persons who laid off this town that a University should be built there.
Mr. HUGHES. I want to know how it comes to be stated that there was a cheat in this Normal School matter?
Mr. HANNA. There were two or three plans submitted as I understand it; one for two hundred thousand, one for one hundred and twenty thousand and perhaps one for fifty thousand dollars. Members of that Legislature who have conversed with me upon the subject say they thought they were adopting the cheap plan. There is a clause in the law which provides that no part of the above appropriation shall be paid until the plan or design--see act of two years ago section two--is filed in the office of Auditor of State. They say they thought they were adopting the cheap plan. I say I know nothing about it. If I had been here I don't think they would have deceived me about it. In a city where there is nobody below a Major General I watch them pretty close when they ask for an appropriation. Now the plans and specifications require the greatest expenditure of money; and when members say they thought the plan they page: 412[View Page 412] accepted was the cheap one we must believe the statement.
Mr. HUGHES. I want to assure the Senator that he is mistaken about it. I have looked all through the Debates on this matter, and the Legislature understood just as well what they were about when they voted that appropriation as when they voted the seventy-five thousand dollars. There was no fraud and no cheat practiced about it.
Mr. CHURCH. Perhaps I can assist the Senator's memory. At the time this bill passed the Legislature we were situated somewhat as we are now. There was a full car load of people from Terre Haute here, and there was not a member but what was button-holed. Now there is a car load not only from Bloomington but from Lafayette also here.
Mr. HUGHES. I beg the gentleman's pardon. There is not half a car load here nor near a load.
Mr. CHURCH. I voted for it under the impression that fifty thousand dollars would build it.
Mr. HUGHES. The State made a proposition by act of the Legislature to have this Normal School established--it is in the acts of 1865, page 140. Senators will there find the origin of this matter. The proposition did not come from the lobbyists of Terre Haute. The people made a bid and that bid was accepted in 1867, and the appropriation made to carry it out. If this Legislature now refuses to keep the faith of the State, it is not the lobbyists that has imposed upon the Legislature but the State that has broken its plighted faith. I refer Senators to the Act of 1867 page 174, which is the other act, and then if they will look into the BREVIER REPORTS, the pages I am ready to give to any Senator, they will see the history of the matter from first to last, and they will see that at no time did the representatives of Terre Haute in the House or Senate make any statement such as is imputed to them.
Mr. SCOTT exhibited the plan of the building which was before the Legislature, and which was recognized by several Senators.
Mr. LEE. Mr. Chairman: I too am opposed to this bill from the first to the eighteenth section. [Laughter.] I am opposed to the connecting of several interests together. My earliest education in legislating was in the other end of this capitol in 1836. Then we connected interests together to prop them up. If these institutions spoken off are worth so much let them stand upon their own foundation. I am the last man on this floor who ought to say anything against the interest of Education, because no man has felt the want of it more than I, but if this institution at Bloomington is so valuable let it stand upon its own foundation, and the institution at Terre Haute the same way.
As to locating the Agricultural College at the Battle Ground I shall vote against it all the time. I am rather instructed on this point. I am in favor of putting this Agricultural College, somewhere in the vicinity of the centre of the State. If we can get no better proposition from Indianapolis I am even willing to take it to Greenfield. My constituents from the noble old counties of Bartholomew and Shelby are here weekly, while no one of them sees the Battle Ground once in five years. I am opposed to connecting these matter together. I am the last man who ought to say anything against a University or literary education because there is no man on this floor who has felt the want of it more than myself.
Mr. HANNA. I am glad the Senator from Monroe has called out this question. I know there is a feeling which has diffused itself like water in the Senate that there has been some kind of cheat in this Normal School matter. I did'nt say so recollect, for I was not here.
Mr. JAQUESS. I was here two years ago. My recollection is distinct and that was that Terre Haute gave fifty thousand dollars for the erection of this Normal School building and that is the picture of the building as represented to me, [holding up the plan exhibited by Mr. Scott a few moments ago;] and they asked an appropriation of one hundred thousand dollars. They estimated that one hundred and fifty thousand dollars would complete the building. That is my distinct recollection. The legislature in the place of giving one hundred thousand dollars only appropriated fifty thousand dollars.
Mr. HANNA. Now let us see what this act of 1865 is. The fifth section is the one that is material. [He reads the fifth and sixth sections from acts of special session of 1865, pages 140 and 141.] Then the proposition was that the Trustees should locate this Normal School at the place that would make the largest donation, not less than fifty thousand dollars. Terre Haute was the only place that offered fifty thousand dollars, and now comes up a controversy between those who granted it and those who received it. I am not talking so much against the Normal School, though we have drawn an elephant in the prize; but the argument I want to make is an illustration of the danger we are about to encounter in adopting this omnibus bill.
I do not object to a Medical College being connected with the State University, for I think as we have a State University, we ought to make it a University in face as well as in name; and I desire to enter protest against the establishment of an Agricultural College as a sepa- page: 413[View Page 413] rate institution for it can't possibly live, exist and flourish as such.
Mr. SCOTT. Mr. Chairman: I have not intended to make a speech on this bill, but because the Senator from Sullivan and two or three other Senators have stated that there was something wrong about the original proposition to build this Normal School I think it proper to say something upon the subject; and I desire if I can to throw some light upon it. I knew but little of this matter at the time it was going on. I went into the State Library room and come across a paper with a picture upon it. I inquired where it came from and the Librarian was kind enough to write a certificate that it was left there by the Committee that had this matter in charge two years ago. That satisfied my mind that there was a mistake among Senators upon this question. There was no design or cheat in this thing. It is not a matter entirely in the interest of Terre Haute. It is not a local matter.
Mr. TURNER (interposing.) I was here two years ago but was not captured by this car load of citizens from Terre Haute. My recollection is that I did not vote for the bill; but that they were asking for one hundred thousand dollars with no promise that they would not come for more. I say this merely as a matter of justice to citizens of Terre Haute, not that I am committed to vote for this bill in the position in which it stands.
Mr. WOLCOTT (interposing.) Superintendent Hobbs understands this matter and he thinks he can explain it satisfactorily. I move that he be allowed to make a statement which shorten debate on this question.
Mr. FISHER. It strikes me that would be a novel procedure.
Mr. JOHNSTON of Montgomery. I object to letting outsiders come in and take part in our debates.
Mr. SCOTT (resuming.) No one need tell me that any man could think a suitable Normal School building could be erected for fifty thousand dollars or one hundred thousand dollars. It would be an impossibility, sir. Now if Senators will look into the Auditor's office they will find plans and specifications accompanying that paper, and they will find a minute calculation in all its parts showing the estimate to be one hundred and sixty-two thousand and odd dollars. When the citizens of Terre Haute sought to have the Normal School located there they were in possession of a building worth the amount some Senators say the building should cost--worth at least twenty-five thousand dollars which the citizens donated with a parcel of ground surrounded by buildings, as a part of the donation which was to be given by them.
Mr. CHURCH (interposing.) I would ask if at the time they asked that appropriation the city had not torn that building down?
Mr. SCOTT. Whether the building was torn down at that time or not I am not informed. If it was it is because the State has accepted the donation for the purpose of erecting the college upon that ground and for no other purpose. If gentlemen will look back to the record, sir, when this appropriation was obtained they will find that the Senator from Vigo county, did offer a resolution in this body asking, in the first instance, for one hundred thousand dollars. It is strange, Mr. Chairman, if that building by arrangement as we are to infer from statements made on this floor, was to cost but the trifling sum of twenty-five thousand dollars, that he should be asking for one hundred thousand dollars. It is a great mistake, sir.
I think there is a disposition on the part of Senators here to grant an appropriation such as shall be proper. I don't ask one hundred thousand dollars, fifty thousand dollars or seventy-five thousand dollars, but I ask what Senators in their consciences say shall be right and proper to give to that institution under the fostering care of this Legislature. The people of Terre Haute will be satisfied--
Mr. CARSON (interrupting.) Will the citizens of Terre Haute accept of the expenditures the State has made upon that building as a donation?
Mr. SCOTT. The gentleman asks me a question I am not prepared to answer. If he will put the question to me individually I will answer direct, but as a representative I have not authority to do so. I would be willing to take that building off the hands of the State if she wants to get rid of it.
The people of Terre Haute have done their part. They have paid their fifty thousand dollars and are ready to carry out the contract made with the Trustees and on file with the Auditor of State. Whenever it shall be proper for them to further carry out the provisions of that contract they will be found ready and willing to do so. I do not think Senators are inimical to this interest and I leave it therefore, in the hands of its friends.
There are other matters connected with this bill that I desire to say something about. I have heard Senators say that the establishment of Agricultural Colleges most always result in failures. It may be so. I an sorry if it is so. I feel an interest in Agriculture and should be sorry if anything connected with that subject should be set down as an entire failure by Senators here. But it does not discourage me. It seems to me there can something be got out of this magnificent grant that shall not be a failure. The reason I desire to locate this college at Tippecanoe is contrary to the reason gentlemen here have given. I de- page: 414[View Page 414] sire to disconnect it from other institutions. I desire to see it self-sustaining.
When we consider that the State has eight millions of dollars belonging to the common school fund and that the University is the grand climax of these free schools an appropriation of twenty-five thousand dollars will not be inappropriate. I feel as deep an interest in the State University as any man on this floor, and I would be satisfied with the sale of University square for its benefit, if I could get nothing more for that institution. I would be willing to vote the twenty-five thousand dollar appropriation to it, and would be glad in all time, if permitted to live beyond this session, that I had cast that vote, and would feel that my time here was not entirely lost.
As far as this Medical School is concerned, and as far as the Law School is concerned we can get along without them. The reason gentlemen give for not having a Medical School is that physicians don't ask for it. From the number of petitions coming up here in the last two weeks I think the people need a Medical School. The benefits to be derived from that school is on the part of the people and not the doctors. I am willing to vote for one, because I believe the people desire to have additional light upon the subject of Medicine. And I think the same thing about a Law School, for I believe the people desire that lawyers shall be highly educated. It is a matter of almost indifference to the people of my section what shall be done with the location of the Medical School; and as it is in this bill I am in favor of having it at this point.
Mr. GIFFORD. Mr. Chairman: I do not purpose making a length speech, but I propose to make a statement or two; and first in regard to this Normal School. I was present when this question was first brought before the Senate and have a very clear recollection of its history. I remember that I voted for the bill in favor of giving fifty thousand dollars towards the construction of this building, a picture of which has been exhibited to the Senate; but as far as my recollection is concerned this is the first view I have had of the picture. If it was ever before exhibited to the Senate I was absent. I remember the friends of this Normal School asked for one hundred thousand dollars for the construction of the building. It was then proposed to locate it somewhere where the people would be willing to give one-half the amount necessary to construct the building; and it was thought one hundred thousand dollars would be sufficient to costruct a building suitable for the purposes of a State Normal School. The citizens of Terre Haute urged that point as the most suitable location, and I remember Senators urged an objection on the ground that at the next General Assembly they would demand an additional appropriation;--it was proposed that it would be the beginning of appropriations--and those who voted against the bill made that a leading argument against the appropriation at all.
The LIEUTENANT GOVERNER (interposing.) I was a Senator two years ago when this appropriation was brought before the Senate, and happened to be Chairman of the Committee on Education. The citizens of Terre Haute, as well as the distinguished Senator rom Vigo county, urged us to appropriate one hundred thousand dollars and said if we would appropriate one hundred thousand dollars they would give fifty thousand dollars and that would be ample to construct the building. But only fifty thousand dollars was appropriated. That is my distinct recollection of the case at that time.I feel it but just to add my testimony to the testimony of the Senator from Posey [Mr. Jaquess] that that was the proposition made by the Senator from Vigo county, as well as the citizens of Terre Haute.
Mr. GIFFORD (resuming.) I did not understand that was to be the entire demand of the friends of this school. My impression is that the picture was gotten up since the Legislature adjourned.
Mr. JAQUESS (in his seat.) I saw it here last session.
Mr. GIFFORD. In regard to this Medical College, I have investigated this matter sufficiently to satisfy my mind that the physicians of the State--the representatives members of the regular profession--do not desire a Medical College established upon the basis proposed in this bill; and I am quite well satisfied from information I have received that they do not contemplate for a moment to accept the proposition contained in this bill, and it might as well be stricken out at once for all the good it will do. I think the medical profession contemplate the erection of a Medical College in this city, but it will be built up by private subscription of the Medical profession themselves. They have seen on the thrushhold--at the beginning of this subject that if we establish a State Medical institution or College the different systems of medicine will come in claiming to be equally represented in that institution, and the House will be divided against itself. If we make the attempt to support Medical Colleges we will have to have at least three,--one Allopathic, one Homoepathic and one Electic. I hold that the people of Indiana are not so anxious to have physicians educated in these different branches at the expense of the public, when Medical men are educating themselves in colleges in other States at their own expense. So I shall move at the proper time to amend this bill by striking out all in reference to establishing a Medical College in Indianapolis. I am prepared page: 415[View Page 415] to vote fifty thousand dollars to he State Normal School whenever the city of Terre Haute shall vote fifty thousand dollars towards its completion.
Mr. HUGHES (interposing.) One of the most important features in every Normal School is what is called a model school where children attend daily and persons educating themselves for teachers take turn about in taking charge of the model school. The city of Terre Haute has agreed to keep up these model schools, and I apprehend that will amount to the interest on fifty thousand dollars, if not more.
Mr. GIFFORD (resuming.) There ought to have been a contract in writing, that Terre Haute would be at one half the expense of this institution--for that was the understanding which influenced my mind before I voted the fifty thousand dollars last session.
In regard to the location of the Agricultural College, I propose to favor Greenfield. I believe I have voted two or three times for Tippecanoe county. So far the Agricultural College has been a failureit has been a failure for the Legislature to locate it. We have failed for six years to locate it, and I am in favor of locating it. I am not very particular where, but favor Greenfield.
Mr. RICE. Mr. Chairman: I regard the aggregation of interests in this bill as good and if the State of Indiana were in a condition at this time to carry out the provisions of this bill I should most assuredly vote for it in the form that it is, but at this time I am against this bill as it stands. And first, from a monetary point of view. Gentlemen should recollect that institutions, such as are proposed in this bill, never were brought out in a day. To build up a University which will command the respect of the people and their support, is the work of time and experience; and I see that the true friends of Education and of the youth of the State will not be found in support of this bill to-day. Because the interests are so diverse and it requires such an expenditure of capital, the people will let it drop as the Senator from Allen proposes to let the Normal School drop now.
The cry of "retrenchment" is not only heard in these halls but from the constituents of every Senator on this floor. If we had the money I am for the bill; but as we have not got it, I am not. The State is just beginning to see the light of day--when she will be clear of debt--and I hope in the course of two or three years the debt now hanging over us will be removed off our shoulders, and we will have no State debt. I want to live to see the day when the repudiation of 1846-7 will have been wiped out and the people will breathe free with consciousness that there is no taxes laid upon them to pay a debt, the beginning of which in some respect is analagous to the system now sought to be inaugurated.
I am a strong friend of the State University. I have been here four sessions and every session have voted for the location of the Agricultural College at Bloomington and making it a part and parcel of the State University. And I am willing to increase the appropriation for that institution eight or fifteen thousand dollars if it is required. It has been a blessing to the State, and with the pittance you gave two years ago it has run up from one hundred and fifty to two hundred and forty-nine students. While I am a friend to sectarian schools I would not make a remark or say a word that would retard the progress of education. I see as a representative here I am bound to represent the interests of my people in the State University. I am bound to do nothing which would retard its growth, and do everything to build it up.
I say wrest from the city of Indianapolis this square which belongs the State,the city of Indianapolis has no more right to it than I use your unexpended funds designed for the benefit of the people,sell that square and apply the proceeds down yonder. I do not understand that the city can obtain title by prescription as against a sovereign, Every day the city is stealing with cat-like tread on this property, moving on and planting out shade and ornamental trees: and soon you may have a magnificent fountain there at the city's expense. I want the children of the State to have the benefit of this property; and not leave it for the benefit and enjoyment of the citizens of this city. If the city is entitled to it the sooner we know it the better. If the State is entitled to it, it is her bound and duty to sell it.
Take two hundred thousand dollars to be realized from the sale of square No. 25; put it with the University fund and locate the Agricultural College along side of the University and it will move on, and you will not call it a side show any longer.
I have no feeling against the Battle Ground or against Greenfield. If the citizens of my county were to ask by petition to locate this Agricultural College at Rockville, I would say No; the State ought not to put up a building for this Agricultural School when she has a State University that will answer the purpose. I would rather tie a mill stone around this magnificent grant of Congress and sink it in the Wabash than attempt to establish an Agricultural College in an isolated place. I don't want to get up any more side shows. We have got enough of them now.
There has been a great deal said about the Normal School at Terre Haute. There is but one question for me to settle and that is this: I shall be governed by the laws, the specifi page: 416[View Page 416] cations put on file and the record. I don't care what the men interested insisted upon at the time. A former Senator from my district--General Steele--advocated an appropriation of one hundred thousand dollars for the Normal School, and I was anxious to second that last year every time I could. I understood it was to cost more money at that time, it is true that the sum is swelled a little, but that is always the case. All we have got to do is to make the appropriation necessary to complete that building. It would be a burning shame and disgrace to the State of Indiana if she does not make arrangements for the completion of that work at this session, and put it in full and complete working order at the earliest possible moment.
Mr. TURNER. Mr. Chrirman: When this bill was first introduced all my convictions were opposed to it, but the discussion by the opponents of this bill have rather led me to be favorable to it. I find that the opponents of this bill are in favor of all the things therein contained in detail, but opposed to the bill as a whole. And while they oppose it as a whole, and favor each and every proposition contained in it in detail, unless it is the one refering to a Medical institution, they at the same time talk about this thing of economy; and upon that very point they have convinced me that it is best to take the bill as a whole than to take it each and every part separate. If all these institutions are place under the control of the State University at Bloomington, the State University will be the only party here asking of us contributions in the future, and if we establish separate institutions each will have claims rightfully upon the State for contributions, and they will all be coming up here asking for appropriations; and each of them will have an outside influence to back it; and will be able to make some combination which will enable some of them to get an appropriation greater perhaps than they should be rightfully entitled to.
Upon what subject and for what purpose can the peoples money be so well expended as in behalf of the subject of Education. The fourth part of one mill on the one hundred dollars;--the fortieth part of one cent;--the four thousandth part of one dollar is the tax that pays this contribution to sustain the State University--the fountain and head of the Educational system of the State of Indiana. We are asked to contribute for the State Normal School seventy-five thousand dollars. That is a tax of two-fifths of one mill to educate those who are to give the principles of Education to those who are to fill our places hereafter. Of all the men we should propose to educate in the State of Indiana it is the men that are hereafter to educate the future statesmen and the directors of the legislation of the State, and perhaps in part of the General Government. I do not think there is a Senator upon this floor that can meet the approbation of his constituents unless he votes and appropriation for the Normal School. I believe my political career is ended with this session by my own will, but if any man desires to be returned here, he must vote the appropriation to the Normal School. I believe this bill as a whole is economy to the State of Indiana--that it will save money to the people hereafter.
Mr. WOLCOTT sent up to the Secretary's desk and had read for information, a bill which he proposed to offer as a substitute for the bill, providing for accepting the fifty thousand dollar donation from Monroe county, and the location of the Agricultural College at Bloomington, the establishment of a Law and Medical department in connection with the University, the sale of University square in Indianapolis, and providing for free education, except in the Law and Medical departments. Also, for the sale of one hundred and twenty acres--part of the Deaf and Dumb ground upon which the Hospital is located, leaving such quantity as may be deemed necessary for the Hospital, and providing for the payment of one hundred thousand dollars to complete the State Normal School, the matter being placed in charge of the Governor, Lieutenant Governor and Superintendent of Public Instruction.
Mr. GREEN. Mr. Chairman: I suppose every Senator on this floor will have to say his piece before this discussion closes, and for this reason I will detain the committee for a few minutes only, as I am desirous to end this discussion and get to other matters pressing on us now at the close of the session.
I heartily approve of many things said here by the friends of this bill, and, as I believe, the true friends of education, but as to the policy of the measure at this time is the question we are to determine. The discussions here have been wide--covering all points of the bill and I will keep within the bounds I hope.
Section one, the starting point of this extraordinary bill, for such it is, coming at a time when the ship of State is sunk to the guards with her load of taxes already levied, provides. "That there be, and is hereby appropriated out of the Treasury, the sum of twenty-five thousand dollars annually, hereafter, in addition to the appropriation heretofore made," "for the support of the State University." This sum of twenty-five thousand dollars is in addition to what has heretofore been made--and the intention is to fasten this upon the State for all future time.
The second section provides that, "the faith of the State is hereby pledged and that the said-- page: 417[View Page 417] appropriations shall neither of them at any time be withdrawn without the consent of the of the Board of Trustees of the State University, and of the Faculty thereof." If eight thousand dollars run the Institution well heretofore, where the need of this sum of twenty-five thousand dollars to be paid semi-annually out of the State Treasury, and thus make an addition to the present liabilities of the State?
The fourth section, I believe, sir, has been rejected but may be again installed, as it is a link in the theory contemplated in this bill. This section contemplates that the State prisons may at some future day have more than current expenses on hands, and if so, the State University will take charge of it; and add it to the University fund. The appropriation of this fund to the support of poor lawyers who may happen to be near enough to Bloomington to read the law library and attend the law school fed from the earnings of penitentiary convicts, should be considered an addition to the Benevolent institutions of the great State of Indiana and should take the first rank among the benevolent objects of legislation.
Section five provides that "the Board of Trustees of the State University are hereby authorized and empowered to establish a Medical Department at the city of Indianapolis in connection with said University, but not to be supported out of any of the funds herein before mentioned or provided." Here the Board of Trustees of the State University at Bloomington say to the city of Indianapolis, We will take you under our wing and give you a branch of the State University, but we want you to understand that you are to have no support "out of any of the fund herein before mentioned or provided." That is, in plain English, you need not look for any of our money; but we will give you a plan by which the money can be obtained by contributions upon the solicitations of eminent men, whose solicitations cannot be resisted. The Governor, Lieutenant Governor, Attorney General, the Treasurer of State, the President of the Board of Trustees of the State University, and and three eminent physicians of the city of Indianapolis. As an out fit to this enterprise the seventh section appropriates out of the treasury five thousand dollars. These solicitors are to form a special Board. The first day of the Board is to control, use and dispose of square No. 25, in the city of Indianapolis, known as "University square" for the benefit of said Medical Department of the State University. All the benefits arising from the sale or lease of this noted and now valuable four acres of land, in the most beautiful part of the capital of our State, is to be thus appropriated to one branch of education alone. The value of this square is estimated to be worth from one hundred thousand dollars to one hundred fifty thousand dollars.
Now Mr. Chairman, I ask is this "free trade and sailors right?" Give to the Medical department one hundred and fifty thousand dollars cash in hand and shove off the Law department with a promise only, that if the lawyers will send all their cliants to the State prisons the law library at Bloomington will replenished by and by.
Section fourteen is another grasp for power and control of an independent institution. It reads: "And be it further enacted, that the Normal School heretofore established at the city of Terre Haute is hereby rocognized as, and declared a branch of the State University," and it asks an appropriation of seventy-five thousand dollars. This sum is less than that asked for by the Board of Trustees of the State Normal School themselves.
This Normal School has crawled upon the State Treasury like a thief at night, and now holds it by the throat and says "pay." How many of Indiana tax payers gave their consent to an enterprise of this kind--the building to cost one hundred and ninety-four thousand three hundred and sixty dollars? This sum is the estimate of the President of the Board, and we may set it down at two hundred thousand dollars. Did the people of Indiana conceive the idea of the extent of this Normal School when the act of December 20, 1865 was passed, creating a State Normal School? Who then thought of the magnitude to which it has grown in so short a time? And what may it not be in four years more? The qnestion is not What has been done, but what shall be done? But aside from its cennection with the University at Bloomington, we have the matter to meet in some way, and we may as well talk of it now as at any other time.
The Governor in this message says: "From an inspection of this report it will be seen that a large appropriation will be required to complete and finish the edifice now in course of construction." As we understand this Normal School, it is to teach those who have gone through with such an education as out common schools will afford. Then this higher school is established for the purpose of preparing such persons for school teaching. No one objects to young men and women who wish to qualify themselves for this most laudible purpose, doing so; but at whose expense shall they be taught? Shall the State levy a tax for this purpose and prepare them for teachers, or shall the State stop when she has given her youth a good common school education--such as now is, and may hereafter be had in the common schools? How many men in this General Assembly started in life after they reached their majority with more than a common school education, such as now can be page: 418[View Page 418] had in Indiana's common schools? If the answer should come, my word for it, it would not be one half. There is a strong effort to make school teaching a profession, and certainly it it so near one, now, that many claim it as one of the learned professions. Now the question is this: Shall the State support the profession? This theory is not inconsistent with the bill under consideration but is in harmony with it. But is it the true policy for the State to pursue?
Mr. Chairman, I have my opinion and I ask no man on this floor to adopt it unless it is his own judgment in the matter. I believe our common school system is the rock upon which our liberties and future hopes for prosperity and greatness as a nation stand, and upon this rock I build my hopes for the future greatness of this nation.
I am not opposed to Normal Schools Such schools are useful and necessary if the same education cannot be found in the colleges of our State. I am not opposed to the Law Schools, nor am I opposed to Medical Schools. But sir, I am opposed to making them State institutions to be fed from the common treasury of the State. We now have as many objects of charity as we are able to care for. Our benevolent institutions must be supported and the people pay this tax cheerfully. The common school tax is paid freely and without a murmur, but how will it be if a half million is asked for to aid the enterprises contemplated in this bill? Grant all that is asked for in this bill and we will hear a voice from the people as the "voice of many waters," and we may feel thankful if its sound should not resemble that of a death knell--to the supporters of this bill.
What is to be done? is still the question with me. I admit I am at a loss to give advice in the matter, or to say what we ought to do. I know I am not for this appropriation. If Terre Haute should fall in love with this magnificent edifice, and barter us to purchase our interest therein I would favor the sale--I want to get out of it, and will give my voice to releave the State of a burden she ought never to have taken upon herself. We have got the wolf by the ears and what to do I am at a loss to say.
To complete the circle, the State Agricultural College is to be taken in and located at the Battle Ground. Section sixteen says: "The donations tendered the State by the Board of Commissioners of Tippecanoe county, the Trustees of the Battle Ground Institute of the Methodist Episcopal Church, and the Trustees of the Battle Ground Institute," are hereby accepted and the faith of the State pledged to this location. What is the effect of this location upon us as the representatives of the people? We locate the College on the donation, and the trouble has just began. The cry comes up for a college edifice, and no mean edifice will suit the great county of Tippecanoe. We may set down as a starting point two hundred thousand dollars for that; a sum nearly equal to the whole sum donated by Congress. The true amount is said to be sated in the Governor's message which is two hundred and thirty-eight thousand, two hundred and forty-eight dollars, ninety cents. On this question I heartily concur with the Governor in his late message. I believe this is the last thing we can do. [Here Mr. G. read the extract referred to--see Governor's message printed as a suffix to this volume.] If however, it is thought best to locate this season, I shall first look at all the offers and do the best thing for the State I can.
I now propose summing up to see how much the enterprise is to cost us to give it a start.
| To the State University.......................... | $ 25,000 |
| To the Medical College at Indianapolis........... | 5,000 |
| Value of Square No. 25, Indianapolis............. | 125,000 |
| To the Normal School............................. | 75,000 |
| Agricultural College............................. | 238,000 |
| Total............................................ | $ 468,000 |
Now sir, here is the staring point in this great enterprise as it is called. We hear it now said it costs nothing except the twenty-five thousand dollars. The seventy-five thousand dollars and five thousnnd dollars are but appropriations only for this year. Grant it sir, but can the Medical College do without an edifice and a fine one that? Begging from the people in our day is a poor business, and these solicitors will fail, and what then? the answer is plain, the State has begun the work and it must be carried on.
A VOICE. Aint you in favor of a Township tax for the benefit of gravel roads. [Laughter.]
Mr. GREEN. I am asked, sir, if I am not in favor of township taxes and for taxing for gravel roads. I answer sir, I am. I am for taxing those who are benefited by the tax, but am not in favor of taxing one portion of community not benefited, to support another section of the country which will be benefited by it.
If we support one institution of this kind why not all? The Hanover College, Wabash College at Greencastle and at this place are all good and flourishing colleges, why not help them? But no; Bloomington must be raised high above all and at the common expense of all.
This system is but the entering wedge to a system of wild speculation which will, if not checked, drift us into a vortext as did our system of State internal improvement years ago.
Mr. JOHNSON of Spencer. I am free to confess my hostility to what is called the omnibus bill. While there are some things in the bill to which, if presented separatley, I page: 419[View Page 419] can give my support. I do not intend to vote for the bill as a measure by itself. Two years ago I voted against an appropriation of fifty thousand dollars for the Normal School. My reason for so voting was, that I then considered it the entering wedge for other large appropriations, which would be followed up in quick succession. But as the former Legislature thought proper to make the appropriation and as they have already made heavy investments, I feel it my duty to come forward and complete the building already begun. I will therefore, at the proper time, vote the needed appropriation for the Normal School at Terre Haute, if not encumbered by other legislation which i do not approve.
With regard to the Bloomington University I beg leave to say that I have none but the kindest feelings toward that institution. I am willing that University square should be sold, and that the proceeds shall go to the benefit of that institution, for, in doing this, I believe I will be voting the proceeds of this square in the manner in which it was originally intended. In this connection, I would say that the people who reside in the county which I have the honor to represent, are tolerably independent on this subject. We have a college in our own county built, and running without any help from any ligislative body. As my own people have taxed themselves to build and maintain a college institute of their own, I do not feel so free to vote a heavy burden of taxation on them to support other schools and other collegiate institutions.
As to the question of Agricultural College, I would say that I am willing and anxious to vote to locate this institution some place during this session. I would say that I have no prejudice against the Tippecanoe Battle Ground, and should we not have any better offer from some other locality, I would most gladly vote for its location there. However I should prefer that we appoint a board of three persons to receive bids and locate the college where the best and most suitable bid is offered. I would be willing to leave this matter with the Governor, Superintendent of Public Instructions, and the Secretary of State.
Mr. HUGHES moved that the committee rise, report progress and ask leave to sit again.
Mr. ROBINSON of Decature, moved to amend so that the bill and pending amendments be reported for action in the Senate. The amendment was rejected.
The motion that the committee rise was agreed to.
The CHAIRMAN accordingly reported to the Senate as instructed.
The report was concurred in.
On motion by Mr. HUGHES, this bill was made the special order for ten and a half o'clock to-morrow.
COURTESY BETWEEN THE TWO HOUSES.
A message from the House was received in reply to the Senate resolution, concerning the messengers between the two Houses, communicating a report of a House Committee, adopted unanimously by the House of Representatives, which characterises the official statement of the Secretary of the Senate, upon which the Senate resolution was based as wholly untrue, and quotes from the BREVIER REPORTS volume 9, page 62 to prove that the Senate is more stringent in this matter than the House, etc.
Mr. CHURCH moved that the message be referred to the Committee on Rights and Privileges with instructions to report at an early day.
Mr. RICE. Mr. President: I propose to stand by the messenger sent from the Senate to the House, for I believe he does not willfully or knowingly state that which is not true, but that he returned just exactly what he understood to be the instruction of the Speaker of the House to the Doorkeeper. For a presiding office of the House of Representatives to instruct a Doorkeeper verbally, that when in his opinion the person who is addressing that body is about to quit he should hold in obeyance a communication from this body;--such an instruction as that given to a doorkeeper, placing the whole action of the Senate upon what a doorkeeper might understand or might know in regard to when a speaker is going to quit strikes me as simply ridiculous.
Mr. HUGHES. Mr. President: This matter requires care and deliberation. The resolution itself is disrespectful to the Senate. It says: Whereas, the action of the Senate was based upon a certain statement of facts, and whereas, that statement of facts is untrue; the House says, therefore the action of the Senate is disrespectful to the House, and they turn round and ask the Secretary to be punished for it. If that officer is guilty of misrepresenting the fact by which the Senate was misled the officer ought to be punished. When the House saw the report made by the Secretary, if untrue, they ought to have acquitted the Senate of any disrespect to the House. No one of us knew anything about it until the Secretary of the Senate reported it; and if he did wrong we ought after due investigation to punish him. But I am not prepared to act in haste, nor to give up an office of the Senate on demand, without knowing what I am about.
It appears that a question of fact has arisen. The House reported in pretty clear language that the statement of our Secretary was untrue; but what evidence is that? They expect us to believe it and ask us to punish our Secretary. Was this an exparte examination? Upon whose page: 420[View Page 420] testimony was it that the House arrived at the conclusion that the official report of our Sectary was untrue? We have a right to assume, and I undertake to say in point of fact that it is true. The Speaker had delegated to the doorkeeper a delicate discretionary power; that when the doorkeeper thought a member would speak only a minute or two the member should not be interrupted by a message from the Senate. No man can decide that. The question has been investigated by the House; the Secretary of the Senate has been condemned and they recommend to us that we punish him without his having been heard. Is that respectful to the Senate or just to its officer? Is that fair?
Mr. RICE (in his seat.) Yesterday a resolution was offered in the House that Wilson's Digest be exchanged for German papers. [Laughter.]
Mr. HUGHES. There is no necessity for the House or Senate quarrelling about this matter. When we are doing juitice to ourselves, let not an important officer be made a scape goat in this matter. In regard to the question of fact; after the statement of the Senator from Parke [Mr. Rice] I think we should raise a committee and hear both sides. I do not want to follow the example of the House. I propose when we raise our committee to call our Secretary before it, and that the officers of the House shall be invited to attend, and if they choose they can testify.
Now in regard to the question of law. The Committee of the House have reported, and the House has unanimously confirmed it that messages from the Senate are received by the House according to the usage of parliamentary law. That raises the question: What are the usages of parliamentary law? I admit that the House could adopt a rule as the Senate did some years ago. But suppose the Senate did adopt a resolution on the subject some yeas ago, the question is: What is the rule of the House now? Has the House adopted any rule, or does it propose to shield itself behind a rule adopted by the Senate some years ago? The House Committee have quoted from Cushing's Manuel. [He read the first sentence of the quotation from section eight hundred and fourteen--see House proceedings of this day.] Our messengers have waited about the door of the House until it has obstructed the business of the Senate. The rule is not to detain him unnecessarily. The book goes on, but the committee wholly leave out a portion. Now here is the part they quote, but they don't happen to quote all. [He reads the balances of the quotation.] It is usual then, says Cushing even to stop a speaker. It is always usual for a Committee of the Whole to rise, and if a member happens to be speaking instead of saying he is not to be stopped, it says the speaker may stop him. Now what did the Speaker of the House do? According to the report of the Committee he instructed the doorkeeper to set his ear to music and find out from the rising and falling of the speaker's voice whether he is about to close.
What does another authority say? We will take Jefferson's Manuel. [He reads from page 121, a joint rule; and page 126.] I now propose to read from another high authority; "Law proceedings in Parliament" by May. [Reads.] Here messages from the other body are based upon the same grounds as points of order. Certainly, in the face or these authorities it would be well for a Speaker to hesitate before instructing a doorkeeper to dispose of messages from the Senate. After I learned the facts in the case I made a single remark, intending to relieve the House of any blame in the matter, attaching the blame to the Speaker. I do not know that it was very parliamentary to do that, but I made the observation that he was in fault--perhaps used stronger language than that. I cannot come to any other conclusion yet than that he was in fault, and it was to facilitate business between the two bodies that I made the remark, not to cast reflection upon the Speaker, for I have no right to annoy him, or say anything unkind about him. Upon the face of that report--I say it seriously but not unkindly;--upon the face of that report I say he is incompetent for his position, and I suppose I say nothing but what is known all around town. [Laughter.]
Mr. FISHER. I move that when we adjourn we adjourn to meet at ten o'clock to-morrow.
The motion was agreed to.
Mr. CRAVENS. I think this matter of sufficient gravity and dignity to be entitled to an investigation by a Committee. The question of fact, it strikes me, from the action of the House is entirely dodged, if that be parliamentary. I move that a Committee of three be raised--that the chair take time to select, and in the morning appoint a Committee to investigate this matter.
The motion was agreed to.
And then--
The Senate adjourned till ten o'clock a. m. to-morrow.
