IN SENATE.
THURSDAY, November 30, 1865.The PRESIDENT pro tem, commanded order at 9 o'clock A. M.
On motion by Mr. ALLISON the reading of yesterday's journal was dispensed with.
PETITIONS AND MEMORIALS.
Mr. ALLISON presented two petitions praying for amendments to the Liquor Law, signed by some 1,000 names.
Mr. Cullen, for Mr. BEESON, presented two similar petitions signed by 5,000 names.
Which were referred to the Committee on Temperance.
Mr. HORD presented a petition from citizens of Bartholomew county, praying for the repeal of the soldiers' family relief law; which was referred to the Special Committee thereon.
MECHANICAL AND MINING.
Mr. WARD, from the Committee on Corporations, returned the bill H. R. 63 in relation to corporations for mechanical, mining and quarrying purposes, recommending its passage.
The report was concurred in, and the bill read the second time.
A STATE NORMAL SCHOOL.
Mr. ALLISON, from the Committee on Education, returned the bill, H. R. 119, establishing a State Normal School, with numerous amendments, recommending its passage. The committee amendment in section 2, making the number of Trustees "four" instead of five, was agreed to.
The committee amendment in section 3, making the term of office "four" years instead of six, was agreed to.
The committee amendment in section 4 substituting "January" for "April," as the time for the annual meeting of the Trustees was agreed to.
The committee amendment in section 6 substituting "$40,000" for "$50,000," as the minimum donation required, to secure the lotion of the school, was agreed to.
The committee amendment in section 8, substituting "$5,000" for " $1,000," as the sum to be drawn from the treasury for completion of the building, being read, objection was made thereto.
Mr. ALLISON made an appeal to Senators in favor of the amendment.
Mr. CULLEN would not throw anything in the way of such an enterprise, but the districts of country bidding for the location of this school could just as well bid $45,000 as $40,000, and save to the State this $5,000 proposed to be drawn from the treasury. Our taxes are now sufficiently heavy, and we ought to save every dollar we can to the State Treasury.
Mr. WRIGHT feared the precedent would be a bad one. He did not oppose the amendment out of hostility to the Normal School, or any thing of that kind.
Mr. CASON was willing to build up a normal school if it took every dollar out of the State Treasury, for it is the foundation of our school system;if we do not have competent teachers we cannot have good schools. How do gentlemen expect to cany on a school system without money? This is the most beneficent purpose for which the State can spend her money.
Mr. BENNETT expressed himself in favor of the amendment, and willing to vote any amount needed for the encouragement of such enterprises.
Mr. OYLER, as a friend to education and of a normal school in the State of Indiana, thought with ihe Senator from Rush [Mr. Cullen] that we can get sufficient competition from various localities in the State to put the institution on a substantial foundation. And We certainly should guard carefully, for some time to come, all approaches to the State Treasury.
Mr. CULLEN moved to reconsider the vote adopting the Committee amendment striking out "$50,000 " and inserting in lieu "$40,000," as the minimum donation required to secure the location of the school. The motion was agreed to.
The Committee amendment was then rejected.
The question recurring on the Committee amendment to section 8 -
Mr. COBB opposed any such appropriation on the part of the State at this time; for whenever the State, through its Legislature, prposes to keep up an institution or aid it by appropriations, the Legislature may depend upon it they wll have it to do. He instanced the case of the Northern State Prison, which he opposed from the first, and then characterized it, as it has proved itself to be, a living, eating moth upon the State. He claimed that no man should go before him in favor of the educational page: 123[View Page 123]interests of the country, but was opposed to taxing the people for the support of this Institution.
Mr. McCLURG. If this Institution is for the benefit of the people at large, then it is a proper subject matter for universal contribution or universal taxation. He objected to a proposition of this kind being put on a level, or compared with a State penitentiary. The competition for the location of this Institution will run as high whether the Legislature contributes to its support or not. Then he spurned the idea that an appropriation by this Legislature should act as a precedent to control future Legislatures - legislators are not worthy the place if they cannot act intelligently upon such questions without looking to precedents.
Mr. VAN BUSKIRK as a friend to this bill, would like to have this $5,000 amendment, but did not regard it as essential. He would rather have the bill as it is than to have no bill at all. It would be no difficult task to show that appropriations made in this way might prevent appropriations in other directions, When it comes to this question of general education - the support of education by the State it seems we become virtuously economical all at once.
The amendment of the Committee was rejected by yeas 20, nays 26.
The Committee amendment to the 10th sec. expunging the words "and may for sufficient reason dismiss the same," was agreed to.
The Committee amendment to section 11 expunging the words was agreed to.
The Committee amendment to section 12 providing that residents of Indiana shall have tuition free, was agreed to.
The Committee amendment to section 34 changing line 5 so as to read "these schools to the Governor, on or before the first Monday in January," was agreed to.
On motion by Mr. CULLEN the 8th section was stricken from the bill by yeas 25, nays 20.
Mr. NILES moved to amend sections 2 and 3 by giving these appointments into the hands of the Governor, with the approval of the Senate, instead of leaving them in the hands of the General Assembly.
The amendments were agreed to.
After amendment of title the bill was passed to the third reading.
REPORTS FROM COMMITTEES.
Mr. CHAPMAN, from the Committee on Finance, returned the bill S. No. 254, amending section 2 of An Act providing a treasury system for the State of Indiana, recommending its passage.
Mr. NOYES, from the Committee on County and Township Business, returned the bill S. No. 228 to amend section 1 of the Act to provide for a more uniform mode of doing Township Business, approved February 18, 1859, recommending its passage.
Mr. BROWN, from the Committee on Finance, returned the bill H. R. 187 to authorize and require the Commissioners of the State Debt Sinking Fund to make settlement with the Sinking Fund Commissioners for $422,000 War Loan Bonds purchased by Sinking Fund Commissioners with moneys belonging to the Common School Fund; also the sum of $165,000, moneys belonging to the Common School Fund advanced by the Sinking Fund to pay interest on the State debt; also the sum of $33,536 09, Saline Fund, and $22,947, Bank Tax Fund; directing the transfer to the Common School Fund of the State of Indiana of so much of the two and a half and live per cent, certificates of the stocks of this State as will, at the price paid, for the same, amount to the aggregate of the sums mentioned in this act; authorizing and directing the proper officers of State to issue a bond of the State for the amount thereof, bearing six per cent. interest, payable semi-annually, and principal payable and redeemable at the pleasure of the State; directing the Treasurer of State to pass to the credit of the General Fund the several amounts herein specified, etc., recommending its passage.
These reports were concurred in, and the bills read the second time.
THE COMMON SCHOOL FUND.
Mr. CHAPMAN, from the Committee on Finance, returned the bill H. R. 47, to increase the powers of the Board of Sinking Fund Commissioners, and to authorize said Board to loan any moneys belonging to said Funds in Indiana State Bonds or stocks, and providing for the canceling of such bonds or stocks, and the re-issuing of new non-negotiable bonds or stocks, payable to said Funds, with sundry amendments, recommending its passage.
The first Committee amendment, striking out all after the word "discretion," in the fifth line of the first section, including the word "discretion," in the tenth line of the same section, the discretion given to the Commissioners to loan money to individuals, being read -
Mr. OYLER objected to making it peremptory to purchase bonds whenever there is money on hand. It is much better to leave it discretionary with the Commissioners either to purchase bonds or loan the moneys on hand.
Mr. BRADLEY favored the Committee amendment.
Mr. CULLEN opposed the amendment; for if you gave the Commissioners no discretion in this matter, they are bound by the terms of the bill to invest moneys on hand in bonds immediately, and bondholders could combine and demand whatever price they please. He would jealously guard this fund for the educational purposes of the State.
Mr. HORD thought this was a dangerous bill - it is leaving too much in the hands or discretion of these commissioners. It is opening in avenue for the corruption of the commissioners (not pretending to insinuate that they will be corrupted) and he was unwilling to throw corruption around them - to repose so much in the virtue of the commissioners. He had not given the thought to the bill necessary to say how the matter ought really to be dealt with; but with his present understanding of it, hoped it would not pass.
Mr. CASON could not see the force of the objection to this Committee amendment, that it would raise the market price of State bonds; mtered into a detailed statement of the workings of the Board of Sinking Fund Commissioners; and concluded by favoring the adoption of the amendment.
And then the Senate took a recess till two o'clock P. M.
page: 124[View Page 124]AFTERNOON SESSION.
The Senate met at 2 o'clock, and proceeded with the consideration of the business pending at the time of the recess for dinner.
Mr. CORBIN'S prejudices all along thave been against the changing of this fund, and now he is called upon to take a choice between two evils - this bill as it comes from the House, or as it is proposed to be amended by the report of the Finance Committee.He spoke in opposition to the amendment under consideration, and gave his reasons at length for preferring the section as it came from the House.
Mr. NILES had desired for years that this fund should be withdrawn from its present channels. He had looked upon the system as fraught with evil almost unmixed with good. It creates the necessity of employing a multitude of officers and agents, and almost necessarily must be, in the present state of society and the world, a kind of corruption fund. He had frequently remarked that rather than have these funds hawked about over the State, as they have been, for the sake of having one-half securely invested in our public securities, he would be willing to see the other half sunk in the bottom of the ocean. He proposed the following substitute for the committee amendment:
And in case said bonds and obligations of the State cannot at any time be purchased at a rate so deemed reasonable, said Commissioners are hereby authorized to invest said funds in the bonds or other public securities of the United States at not exceeding their market value, and whenever thereafter said bonds of the State can be purchased at a reasonable rate, said Commissioners may sell said securities of the United States or any part thereof for cash, and shall immediately reinvest the proceess in said bonds of the State as aforesaid
Mr. NILES advocated his amendment at some length. He remarked that the original bill proposed to authorize the Sinking Fund Commissioners to loan out the funds to individuals in case bonds of the State cannot be purchased at a reasonable price. He should regard it as a great public calamity to have the sinking fund distributed through the State and loaned to individuals or banks. As to those funds, it was his first object to have them invested in our public debt.
The amendment proposed by the Committee would compel the Commissioners to keep the funds locked up in their vaults, whenever the obligations of the State can not be purchased at reasonable rates - thus necessitating a loss of interest.
On the contrary, his amendment would authorize the investment of funds otherwise lying idle, in the bonds of the United States. Such bonds can always be bought or sold in the public markets, at a well known price, and till the money can be judiciously invested in our own securities, would be drawing a high rate of interest, it would leave no room ibr peculationcause no lossand be attended with no expense, and would bring a revenue to the State.
His present object was to make the bill as perfect as possible, without now determining whether it would be just to our creditors, or whether he ought to vote for the bill, on its passage.
Mr. OYLER opposed this amendment to the Committee's amendment, on the ground that it would be extreme folly for us to occupy theposition of money-lender for any great length of time, while we are involved in debt. All the objections urged against the Committee amendment, in his judgment, applied with full force, against this one.
Mr. HORD, after reading the bill and making some few inquiries concerning it, was more favorably impressed with its provisions. He objected, however, to the amendment proposed by the Senator from Laporte [Mr. Niles,] and also to the amendment of the Committee. He preferred the section us it comes from the House; and on reflection since the recess for dinner, felt disposed to vote for the bill.
Mr. COBB was not sure this bill indicates a proper mode of investing this fund; but as there seems to be a disposition to push it through in some shape, he desired to see it perfected, without committing himself for or against it. The amendment of the Senator from Laporte was no better than the Committee amendment; and his remarks were in opposition to both, without going into the details of the bill. He understood, from information imparted to him on the subject, that at this session there would be no adjustment of the State debtthat the majority in this Legislature contend it is not due. And if it is not due he was unwilling to pay it, for the reason that we are now burdened with taxation, and are compelled to be burdened for years to come; and it is much easier to pay the interest thereon, at 2 1/2 or 5 per cent, than to pay the principal at this time, or even interest at six per cent.
Mr. CULLEN. Every speech made on this question has the more firmly tixed upon his mind the conclusion that both amendments should be voted down and the bill passed as it now stands. This is one of the most sacred funds ever placed under our control, and he had no other desire than to husband the means and guard this fund in every possible way. He could not help how much gentlemen protest they do not intimate but that they have full confidence in the Board of Sinking Fund Commissioners, the action of the Senate will speak louder than words. He for one was not willing, to adopt this amendment and thus say to those Commissioners: " We have no confidence in you and can not let you manage this fund as you may think best."
Mr. VAWTER. If what has been said on this floor be true, these Sinking Fund Commissioners have violated a plain provision of law, and no matter how high these gentlemen may stand personally, they are unworthy the places they occupy; and he would cast his vote to take the funds as speedily as possible from the control of these men - who are our servants, and who should execute the law as we write it. He desired to see the bill amended, and might possibly vote for both amendments now before the Senate. He did not know upon what authority it was stated that there would be no adjustment of the State debt this session. Whether it be in fact due or not, sound policy would require us to commence making provisions for its payment.
Mr. ALLISON contended it would do no harm to throw around these funds every possible guard; and could see no objection to the amendment offered by the Senator from Laporte. He referred to the statement made by the Senator from Lawrence, that there might page: 125[View Page 125]not be an adjustment of the State debt this session, and insisted that the debt should be paid on the 19th of January next, or some provision made for its settlement.
The substitute [Mr. Niles'] for the Committee amendment was then rejected by ayes 19, nays 27.
The question recurring on the first amendment, proposed by the Committee on Finance.
Mr. CHAPMAN. While the Committee have all confidence in the Board of Sinking Fund Commissioners, they thought it better to throw every guard around this fund. The fund has already lost some $18,000 in the last six months by lying idle, and this is one of the reasons for desiring to get it invested in six per cent, bonds. He explained the reasons for the amendments offered by the Committee.
Mr. DUNNING (Mr. Richmond in the Chair) spoke in opposition to the amendment. Referring to the State debt, he said he felt some pride in haying it paid. He was a warm advocate of the internal improvement system of the State in 1836. and was proud to-day to acknowledge the part he took in saddling that system upon the people of the State. It was the entering wedge to that spirit of improvement which has made the State powerful in times of peace and great and patriotic in time of war. He was prepared to vote for the settlement of that debt, if it is due, notwithstanding the fact that the people are at the present time heavily taxed. But if we are not to adjust that debt now, let not the interests of the children of the State stand still - let not this money lie idle if the vaults of the banks here or elsewhere, but let it be placed where it will be drawing interest at six per cent.
Mr. HANNA. The bill did not quite meet his views. He could not see that this amendment gives superior protection to the rights of citizens, and preferred the House bill in this particular. It was his deliberate judgment that by party maneuvering, or other causes, the settlement of the State debt will perhaps pass by this General Assembly, and if it does, it don't require any great foresight to know that the stocks of Indiana will become depressed from the very hour the Legislature adjourns. Then these Commissioners can go into the market and buy up these bonds and stocks, and when the State comes to a settlement, they will attain their full value in the market, and the school fund will derive the benefit. And if there is to be a speculation of this sort, he wanted it should be made right there.
Mr. CASON recited the provisions of the bill and proposed amendments, pointing out inconsistencies as between them, and expressing the opinion that this matter has not yet been considered with that care it should be. It is because he desired to shield the Board of Sinking Fund Commissioners and enhance the value of the school fund, that he contended for the passage of a measure that will provide a secure investment for the moneys on hand. He opposed the loaning of this fund to individuals, and for this and other reasons urged the adoption of the amendment.
On motion of Mr. CULLEN the amendment was laid on the table by yeas 25, nays 20 - as follows:
YEAS - Messrs. Barker, Bennett, Bonham, Bowman, Brown of Wells, Cobb, Corbin, Cullen, Finch, Fuller, Gaff, Gifford, Hanna, Ford, Hyatt, Jinkens, McClurg, Marshall, Mason, Moore, Newlin, Oyler, Richmond, Staggs and Mr. President - 25.
NAYS - Messrs. Allison, Beeson, Bradley, Brown of Hamilton, Cason, Chapman, Davis, Dykes, English, Milligan, Niles, Noyes, Reagan,Terry, Thompson, Van Buskirk, Vawter, Ward, Woods and Wright - 20.
Pending the roll call -
Mr. BENNETT explained that he voted to lay the resolution on the table for several reasons; one was his opposition to that provision which requires the Lieutenant Governor to superintend these Sinking Fund Commissioners in this matter. While he had the highest confidence in the Governor, he also had high confidence in the Commissioners, and was not disposed to insult them by connecting another officer with them because there is some $600,000 in their hands.
Mr. THOMPSON explained that he was not willing to vote for laying the amendment on the table, because there is no security required by law of those individuals to whom the fund may be loaned.
Mr. WILLIAMS, for the first time in his life, asked to be excused from voting. Part of the amendment he was in favor of: - he was in favor of preventing the loaning of these moneys to individuals; but was opposed to placing the Lieutenant Governor as a superintendent over the Commissioners.
The Senator was excused.
And so the amendment was laid on the table.
Mr. WILLIAMS, believing that the Committee would be able to make a report satisfactory to a majority of the Senate, moved to recommit the bill and pending amendments to the Committee on Finance.
Mr. CULLEN made an ineffectual motion - yeas 23, nays 23 - to lay the motion to recommit on the table.
Mr. BROWN, of Wells, made an ineffectual demand for the previous question.
The motion to recommit was agreed to.
And then the Senate adjourned (under the rules) till 9 o'clock to-morrow morning.
