HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.
TUESDAY, February 19,1861PETITIONS AND MEMORIALS.
Mr. STOTSENBERG presented the petition of members of the city council and others, citizens of New Albany, for a change in the constitution, so that towns, townships, and cities page: 245[View Page 245]may have the right to levy taxes for the sup-port of common schools. The matter of the petition having been acted on, he moved that it be laid on the table; which was agreed to.
Mr. WOODS presented the memorial of Nicholas Shearer, of Lake county, praying for legislation to indemnify him for injuries sustained by him on account of being prevented by the commissioner from completing his contract on the Calumet ditch. It was referred to the Committee on Claims.
Mr. McLEAN presented the remonstrance of Kench. Smith and others, citizens of Vigo county, against the passage of the committee bill [136,] for the Protection of fish and fisheries, which was referred to the Committee on Rights and Privileges.
Mr. EDSON presented the petition of A. C. Williams and others, memorializing the Legislature to request the Peace Commissioners and instruct our Senators and Representatives in Congress to compromise and co-operate for peace on the basis of the Crittenden amendments, or some other basis equally fair and honorable; which was referred to the Committee of Thirteen.
Mr. HEFFREN had leave of absence-sick.
RESOLUTIONS AND ORDERS.
Mr. ROBERTS had leave to submit a resolution, that the Committee on Rights and privileges inquire into the expediency of a law requiring all persons, before taking charge of a moveable or stationary steam engine in this State, to procure a certificate of qualifications.
Mr. KENDRICK ; For a subscription for one copy of Sutherland's Biographical Sketches of the members and officers of the Forty-first. General Assembly of the State of Indiana to be sent to each township library; which was referred to the Committee on the Judiciary.
Mr. CRAIN: Whereas, the Supreme Court, at the last term, decided that capital invested in the Bank sf the State is taxable in the hands of holders of certificates of stock, Resolved, that the Judiciary Committee inquire into the expediency of amending the assessment laws in that regard, &c.
Mr. PROSSER: That the Committee on the Judiciary inquire into the expediency of suspending all execution laws and laws for the collection of debts, for the term of one year, and report, &c.
Mr. BRANHAM: A joint resolution [31] To provide for the appointment of a Commission to investigate and report on the fiscal affairs of the State. [Three Commissioners pn the part of the House and two on the part of the Senate-to report to the next General Assembly, or to the Governor as soon as they shall complete the work-empowered to examine State offices and papers, to send for persons and papers, and receive the compensation of members of the Legislature during the time necessarily engaged therein.]
The joint resolution was passed-yeas 76, nays 4.
[A message from the Senate announced a joint resolution for a Joint Committee to report a bill for the gradual liquidation of the State debt-,and announced the passage of bills.]
Mr. JENKINSON: That the Committee on Ways and Means inquire into the expediency of replacing the enclosure of the Governor's Circle with a good, substantial iron fence.
Mr. HOLCOMB: That from and after tomorrow, the time of meeting of the House shall be nine o'clock in the morning and two o'clock in the afternoon.
It lies over one day.
Mr. ORR: That Mr. A. D. Streight have the use of this Hall next Thursday night, February 21st, for the purpose of a public lecture on the present crisis.
Mr. WOODS: A concurrent resolution instructing our Senators and requesting our Representatives in Congress, to use all honorable means to prevent the renewal of the patent to Cyrus H. McCormick for his reapers. It was referred to the Committee on Agriculture.
Mr. SHERMAN: A joint resolution (32) instructing our Senators and requesting our Representatives in Congress to endeavor to procure an appropriation for the improvement of the harbor at Michigan City. It was passed- yeas 81, nays 1.
Mr. WOODHULL: Giving to Samuel E. O. Wilson the privilege of the floor for the purpose of soliciting aid of members in behalf of his distressed fellow citizens in Kansas.
Mr. HOLCOMB: That the Auditor of Public Accounts be requested to report to this House immediately the amount of swamp lands funds received and placed to the credit of Gibson county-to whom paid, and for what paid.
NEW BILLS
Were now introduced (by unanimous consent) and passed to the second reading, viz :
Mr. Bundy: [246] To repeal all laws authorizing the judges of the Circuit Courts to hold special or adjourned terms, and legalizing the business of said terms.
Mr. Veatch: (247) To provide for taxing and collecting for the use of the State docket fees in civil and criminal causes, where, the State shall be a party. [Five dollars against the losing party.]
Mr. Hopkins: [248] To authorize the Board of Commissioners of the several counties through which the Wabash and Erie canal runs, to cause bridges to be made across said canal.
Mr. Mutz : [249] To provide for the collection of taxes from persons wandering through the State without any place of permanent abode-(Gypsies.)
Mr. Underwood: [250] To enable railroad companies incorporated under the general railroad law of May 11, 1852, that have gone on to construct their roads, but have not completed them, to enjoy the privilege of their page: 246[View Page 246]charters, &c., and also to extend the time for the completion of railroads.
Mr. Gore: (251) To amend the 14th section of the Common Pleas act of March, 1859.
Mr. Jenkinson: [252] To amend the second section of the act of March 3, 1859, incorporating school township, &c.
Mr. McLean: [253] Declaring the vending, selling, or giving away of impure or drugged liquor a felony, and prescribing punishment therefor.
Mr. Brett: [254] To provide for the revaluation and sale of forfeited school lands.
Mr. Crain; [255] To enable the Board of Trustees of the Wabash and Erie canal, with the consent of the creditors, to lease said canal.
Mr. Pitts: [256] To secure the collection of rents in certain cases therein named; and to enable persons of small means to rent lands without giving personal or other security therefor.
Mr. Edson : [257] Fixing and providing for the compensation of members of the General Assembly, the secretaries, clerks and doorkeepers thereof, repealing, &c., [$300 for each regular session, $200 for each called session: mileage 16 cents a mile, &c.]
Mr. Bingham: [258] To amend sections 684 and 688 of the practice act, so as to authorise a rate of assessment of damages in certain cases.
Mr. Sherman: [259] Supplemental to the act of March 9, 1859, amendatory of the general law for the incorporation of. cities, &c., [where the population is less than 10,000 the mayor and councilmen shall receive no compensation as such, &c.]
Mr. Edson; [260] To authorize constables to administer oaths in certain cases (to appraisers.)
Mr. Parrett: [261] To amend section 6 of the act of May 2, 1852, incorporating 'mining and manufacturing companies, &c., so as to provide that any company incorporated under said act may Increase the same by a vote of the stockholders, in the same manner as provided in said act for increasing the capital stock.
KANSAS RELIEF.
Mr. CAMERON submitted a resolution, that the Committee on Rights and Privileges inquire into the expediency of donating and appropriating the sum of $2,000 to aid /the starving poor of Kansas.
After some conversation across the House, it was laid on the table-affirmative 41, negative 89.
NEWTON COUNTY-SEAT.
Mr. SHERMAN, from the Committee on Ways and Means, returned Mr. Frasier's bill [173], supplemental to the act of March 2,1855, and the Perry county-seat act of December, 1858, so as to provide for the re-location of county-seats, where no court house house been erected,&c., [to apply to the county of Newton] recommending its passage.
Mr. STOTSENBERG opposed the bill.
Mr. MOODY supported the bill from various considerations. All he desired was, that the people of Newton county,should have the right to decide this matter for themselves-should have a fair chance against the claims of Alexander J. Kent, upon whose lands said county seat has been located by the commissioners.
Mr. CRAIN. This bill would create county-seat litigations all over the State.
Mr. CAMERON. It could affect the question of the county-seat only where they have no county buildings.
Mr. FRASIER. It could affect no county in the State, unless it should happen to be in precisely the same situation in which Newton county is now placed in this matter.
Mr. CASON. It was no more than just that a majority of the people should control their own'affairs,this respect; this bill requires three-fifths.
Mr. CAMERON demanded the previous question, and under its operation the report was concurred in and the bill ordered to be engrossed-yeas 64, nays 19.
On motion by Mr. WOODHULL, it was ordered that Mr. Jenkinson's bill [5,] passed yesterday and transmitted to the Senate, be recalled.
Mr. BUNDY, from the Judiciary Committee, returned Mr. Cameron's bill [50,] to repeal the act for the return of juries to the common pleas on the third day of term, with a recommendation that it be laid on the table; which was concurred in.
MATTHEWS AND JOHNSON.
Mr. DOBBINS, from a majority of the Committee on Claims, returned , the memorial of Wm. B. Matthews and Johnson, citizens of the State of Illinois, for compensation ($224 60) for capturing and returning a fugitive from justice from Marion county, reporting against the appropriation of money for such a purpose. They say they come to this conclusion very reluctantly; and they admit that if they did not believe that the commissioners of Marion county have the power to make said allowance, they would recommend that it made by the General Assembly.
Mr. SLOAN, for the minority-himself and Mr. Stevenson-reported in favor of the allowance of the claim.
The report of the majority was concurred in.
COUNTY SURVEYORS' FEES.
Mr. HOLCOMB (by leave) submitted a resolution, which was adored, for the appointment of a committee of five, instructed to examine the law in reference to the fees of county surveyors, and report such changes as may be necessary.
The SPEAKER (Mr. Nebeker in the chair; makes the said committee to consist of Messrs. Holcomb, Collins of Adams, Wilson, Fisher and Jones of Tippecanoe.
page: 247[View Page 247]POWERS OF AGRICULTURAL SOCIETIES.
Mr. VEATCH, from the Committee on the Judiciary, returned Mr. Thompson's bill [199] to amend the act of Feb. 7, '55, so as to authorize county agricultural societies to increase the amount of land that may be held by them to 80 acres, and to authorize such societies to issue capital stock; with a clerical amendment, recommending its passage.
The amendment was adopted.
On motion of Mr.BRANHAM, the bill was considered as engrossed, and passed the final reading in the house-yeas 84, nays 0.
Mr BRETT, from the Committee on County and Townships' Business, returned Mr. McLean's bill [4] and another bill [not recited], and reported a substitute for both, viz.: a bill [262] to amend sections 78, 79, 94,95, 142, and 143 of the assessment act of June 21, 1852; and to repeal the act of March 4,1859 : which was passed to the second reading.
Mr. BURGESS, from the Committee on Agriculture, returned the resolution for repealing the provision of law imposing a penalty for not furnishing the assessor with list, &c., reporting legislation inexpedient; which was concurred in.
CONVENTIONAL INTEREST.
On motion'of Mr. BUNDY, the House now resolved into Committee of the Whole-Mr. Bundy in the Chair-and took up the consideration of the bill providing for a conventional interest on the loan or forbearance of money not exceeding 10 per cent per annum: the; question being on Mr. Branham's amendment to strike out "ten" and insert "six ;" and to strike out all that relates to the plea of usury.
Mr. NEBEKER had spoken two hours on this question in the last session, and he gave now the reason for the interest he had manifested in. this bill. The ten per cent, law would have saved his worthy friend from bankruptcy, who had now gone under. He gave other examples to show that such a law, instead of oppressing, would frequently relieve the embarrassments of poor men. Legalize the ten per cent., and the rate of interest would come down.
Mr. NEWMAN. He voted on the question with reference to its practical bearings. He voted for the bill, because it was demanded. He saw this demand in the common evasion of the present law. It was demanded by both the borrower and the lender. It had been said that every law was violated. If it were true that all laws were violated without the execution, of the penalty, then we were better, perhaps, without law. But was it so? The plea of usury was now hooted at; but a misdemeanor was sure to be punished. It was useless here to discuss abstract theories on this question. The present law took capital out of the State. If the practice of receiving 10 per cent, had not been gradually increasing, it would change the case materially. But it was a practice that had been growing up for years.
Mr. DAVIS spoke against the amendment of Mr. Branham.
Mr. DOBBINS moved, ineffectually, that the committee rise and report the bill, with a motion to indefinitely postpone.
Mr. NEBEKER moved that the committee rise, report bill, and recommend passage.
Mr. FRASIER proposed to amend the motion, that the committee rise and recommend the adoption of Mr. Branham's amendment.
Mr. ROBBINS favored the latter motion.
Mr. CAMERON. There were two objections to the amendment. It took away the interest laws and, indeed, encouraged dishonesty. It would oppress the conscientious borrower, and leave room for rogues to violate their contracts.
Mr. CRAIN. This bill would give the merchant the power to fleece the farmer. He saw no difference in limiting the per cent, of profit on goods and limiting the per cent, on the loan or forbearance of money. The amendment would restrain the advantage now enjoyed, and by the bill proposed, to be more largely enjoyed, by the merchants. A man was not apt to loan his money to a scamp. He was for abolishing all usury laws.
Mr. FISHER. It was hard for him to understand why the price of money should be regulated by law, any more than the price of wheat and corn. It seemed to him that the price of money should be regulated by the same rule that regulates all, trade-demand and supply. Money could not be borrowed for less than twelve per cent, interest. This practice being universal,why should not farmers be permitted to loan their capital for 10 per cent.? He gave examples to show how a. ten per cent, law would prevent the flow of capital out of the State, He replied, to Mr. Crain's plea of advantage that would be tataken by the merchant, by stating that the merchant could get about as much as he wants in the profit on his goods, if he was restricted in interest.
Mr. JENKINSON said the shaver in Allen county now ordinarily charges 25 per cent., whilst the bank rates were from 12 to 15 per cent. The banks would have short paper, whilst everything like a mortgage, running a year or so, went into the hands of the shavers, &c. His proposition was, to promote the producing interests of the State, by increasing the facilities of getting money to take the pro-duce to market. He gave examples, speaking at length. His idea was to increase the number of money-loaners. Thousands of the capital of the people of Indiana lay now dead, inert in land in Iowa, or wheresoever, instead of quickening business at home.
Mr. STOTSENBERG., One principle was fixed in his mind, viz : That country is most prosperous where there is a low rate of interest. This was true of England, and of all great commercial States. This matter was not to be regulated by demand and supply. The rate depends upon the security of the lender.
page: 248[View Page 248]Mr. FISHER was only considering the cases where the security was uniformly good.
Mr. STOTSENBERG. Another principle here, was in the control of the lender over the money loaned. If he could get it back when he wants it, he would loan at a lower rate. As long as you prevent the leaner from getting his money on short time, you will have a high rate of interest. Now the lender could not get his money back, by law, in less than a year, &c. He called attention also to the fact, that we allow the banks to charge interest above the legal rate. The difficulty was in the tardy provisions for collections; and in the privilege of the banking corporations to add their charges for exchange.
Mr. PARRETT, interrupting. The reason men availed themselves of delays was, because the use of the money was worth more than the interest, the attorney's fees, costs, and damages.
Mr. STOTSENBERG was anxious for that rule to obtain, by which farmers and all men could charge the same rate of interest with the banks. He gave examples. He would never increase the rate of interest to ten per cent, so long as the banks had the privilege to add exchange, and demanded interest in advance, which he understood this bill to deny to other money-lenders.
Mr. BRANHAM desried definite action: and moved that the Committee rise, report the bill to the House, and ask to be discharged from its further consideration.
The motion was agreed to, and accordingly the committee rose, and the report was concurred in. The question being still on the adoption of Mr. Branham's amendment-
Mr. BRANHAM. There could be no certain correct and just standard-rate of interest. The amendment proposes the largest liberty. It was a mistake that it was a premium for rascality. That premium was in the existing law. To obviate the difficulty about demand and supply, it was proposed to strike down the plea of usury. He gave examples, and spoke at length. Another thing : there was no data by which to determine the present indebtedness of the people of the State; but it was immense, on account of the short crops, beginning in 1854; and this bill was to increase this immense debt of the people of the State by four per cent. Upon this consideration, he was willing to meet gentlemen on the amendment he had proposed.
Mr. ORR thought the amendment would not be proper. It would give too much power to the money-lender over the honest borrower.
Mr. VEATCH. Did the gentleman ever know a prosecution for usury, except it were a case of personal spite.
Mr. ORR. No.
Mr. STOTSENBERG proposed to amend the amendment, by adding a clause, excluding banking corporations from charging more than 10 per cent, including exchange.
Mr. McLEAN moved to lay the amendmenton the table.
Mr. BRANHAM called for a division of the question.
The SPEAKER. The first question will be on tabling the amendment of the gentleman from Jefferson.
Mr. EDSON called for a division of this question.
Mr. SPEAKER. The first question under this division will be on tabling the proposition to repeal the usury laws.
The House refused to lay that branch on the table; and the question on tabling the proposition for striking out "ten per cent," and inserting "six," was also decided in the negative-yeas 24, nays 63.
Mr. STOTSENBERG'S amendment was then laid on the table-yeas 49, nays 21.
Mr. LANE now moved that the bill and pending amendments be laid on the table, and demanded the yeas and nays thereon, which being ordered and taken, resulted-yeas 24 nays 62-as follows:
YEAS-Anderson, Black, Bryan, Collins of Adams, Coop, rider, Dobbins, Edson, Ferguson, Fleming, Ford, Gore Gresham, Hall, Horton, Howard, Knowlton, Lods, Lane, Prosser, Prow, Ragan, Roberts, Trier, Thompson-24.
NAYS-Bingham, Boydston, Branham, Brett, Brucker Bundy, Burgess, Cameron, Campbell, Cason, Combs, Grain' Dashiel, Davis, Erwin, Fisher, Fordice, Fraley, Frasier' Gifford, Grover, Harvey, Haworth, Hayes, Henricks, Holcomb, Hopkins, Hudson, Kurd, Jenkinson, Jones of Wayne, Kendrick, Lee, Lightner, McLean, Moody, Moorman, Mutz, Nebeker, Newman, Orr, Parrett, Pitts, Polk, Randall, Robbins, Sherman, Sloan, Smith of Bartholomew, Smith of Miami, Stotsenberg, Thomas, Turner, Underwood, Veatch, Warrum, Wells, Williams, Wilson, Woodhull, Woods, Mr. Speaker-62.
So the motion was rejected, and the question recurred again on Mr. Branham's amendment.
[Mr. Holcomb had leave of absence, on account of sickness in his family.]
Mr. STOTSENBERG moved to indefinitely postpone the amendment. Before the question was taken thereon-
The House adjourned.
